Israelis want peace you say?

[White Doors]

I started reading about this subject and I gave up and blamed it on the Joos

~fixed~

[M.Dancer]

I started reading this thread and I gave up. Maybe this has already been covered...

Israel does not want peace. It wants land. It constantly expands its land through settlement building and it constantly stalls the peace process. When the Palestinians try to fight back, they are called terrorists and the Israelis march out their American weaponry to kill them. This is a classic ethnic cleansing operation.

Israel embarked in 1948 on a campaign that depended on military might to drive Arabs out of their homelands in order to build a Jewish state. They have not stopped since. This drive is justified by the persecution of Jews in Europe and by the Holocaust, although Arabs living in Palestine had no role.

The only reason Israel has gotten away with it is that they have the full support of an American government in which Jewish Americans have an extraordinary amount of financial and political support.

This is a bubble that is going to burst sooner or later.

Great post except for the factual mistakes.

Israel does not want peace. It wants land.

If that was so they wouldn't have given back Sinai, Golan, Gaza and most of the West bank.

When the Palestinians try to fight back, they are called terrorists and the Israelis march out their American weaponry to kill them. This is a classic ethnic cleansing operation.

When the palestinians fight back they rely on terrorist tactics, that's why they are called terrorists. American weapons have nothing to do with ethic cleansing, and given that the Palestinians have not been eradictaed or forced to leave either Israel, the West bank or Gaza, the claim is simply false.

Israel embarked in 1948 on a campaign that depended on military might to drive Arabs out of their homelands in order to build a Jewish state.

Israel was attacked first by the Arab League, they did not embark on a campaign.

This drive is justified by the persecution of Jews in Europe and by the Holocaust, although Arabs living in Palestine had no role.

Ignoring the first part, Arabs living in Palestine volunteered to fight with the Nazis.

The only reason Israel has gotten away with it is that they have the full support of an American government in which Jewish Americans have an extraordinary amount of financial and political support.

Israel did not have the full support of anyone in 1948 nor do tey have it now. The only reason they survive is because they win, given that the other option is final.

But anyway, great post.

[kuzadd]

hahaha

You said that Israel was going to steal the gas nimrod.

Not only have they given the gas to the palestinians for free, they are going to buy it from them.

What else do you want? my goodness.

Just read more slowly kuzadd so you are able to take in all the facts.

I said Israel was "going to steal the gas'

could you provide my quotation on that.

Not only have they given the gas to the palestinians for free, they are going to buy it from them.

I think again, it is you that needs to take in all the facts.

Israel did not give the gas to the Palestinains for free, and they had no intention of "buying" it from them.

It is Palestines gas, therefore it is not the Israelis to give.

It says, they wanted to exchange for goods, that is not buy, that sounds like barter.

I can assure you as you call me another name, the "nimrod" is not myself.

[bush_cheney2004]

...The only reason Israel has gotten away with it is that they have the full support of an American government in which Jewish Americans have an extraordinary amount of financial and political support.

So where are all the Egyptian and Jordanian Americans? Do the "Jewish Americans" lobby for their billions too?

This is a bubble that is going to burst sooner or later.

Why? This approach has worked out quite well for Canada and the United States with respect to their "PalestIndian" problem.

[Pointillist]

When the palestinians fight back they rely on terrorist tactics, that's why they are called terrorists.

George Bush once made a "Wanted Dead or Alive" speech. Do you know who Itzhak Shamir is?"

American weapons have nothing to do with ethic cleansing, and given that the Palestinians have not been eradictaed or forced to leave either Israel, the West bank or Gaza, the claim is simply false.

Of course it is.

Israel was attacked first by the Arab League, they did not embark on a campaign.

And what is your response to the fact that Palestinians who have registered land deeds under the Turks, the Brits, and the Jordanians, and still have the deeds to their homes in safekeeping, are being replaced by settlements built for Europeans?

Ignoring the first part, Arabs living in Palestine volunteered to fight with the Nazis.

So did Israeli freedom fighters! So what?

Israel did not have the full support of anyone in 1948 nor do tey have it now. The only reason they survive is because they win, given that the other option is final.

Oh give it a break. Proposed by the US. Seconded by the Ruskies. Who are you trying to kid?

But anyway, great post.

You bet.

[M.Dancer]

George Bush once made a "Wanted Dead or Alive" speech. Do you know who Itzhak Shamir is?"

Of course it is.

Are these thoughts somehow related?

And what is your response to the fact that Palestinians who have registered land deeds under the Turks, the Brits, and the Jordanians, and still have the deeds to their homes in safekeeping, are being replaced by settlements built for Europeans?

Is this germane to why the Arab league attacked the state of Israel in 1948

So did Israeli freedom fighters! So what?

Israeli freedom fighter fought alongside of the Nazis? Was there a time machine and an alternate dimension invloved?

Oh give it a break. Proposed by the US. Seconded by the Ruskies. Who are you trying to kid?

You bet.

What kinds of weapons were supplied by the US and the USSR to Israel in 1948?

[DogOnPorch]

I started reading this thread and I gave up. Maybe this has already been covered...

Israel does not want peace. It wants land. It constantly expands its land through settlement building and it constantly stalls the peace process. When the Palestinians try to fight back, they are called terrorists and the Israelis march out their American weaponry to kill them. This is a classic ethnic cleansing operation.

Israel embarked in 1948 on a campaign that depended on military might to drive Arabs out of their homelands in order to build a Jewish state. They have not stopped since. This drive is justified by the persecution of Jews in Europe and by the Holocaust, although Arabs living in Palestine had no role.

The only reason Israel has gotten away with it is that they have the full support of an American government in which Jewish Americans have an extraordinary amount of financial and political support.

This is a bubble that is going to burst sooner or later.

Another Lenni Brenner fan, I see. Do you know that if you type 'zionists' and 'nazis'

into Google, all you get is weird anti-Jewish websites? Just thought I'd check...

---------------------------------------

Black = White; Up = Down; Nazi = Jew

[ironstone]

A very interesting article in today's Ottawa Sun by Lorrie Goldstein.I simply ask that you take a few minutes to read it carefully.It concerns the Hamas Charter.

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/G...952431-sun.html

Somewhere I read a silly comment by BC chick that Hamas merely wants a return to the 1967 borders and there will be peace.Here's a sample of the Hamas mindset:As the Hamas Charter states: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it has obliterated others before it ... the land of Israel is an Islamic Waqf, consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgment Day."

Hamas is also very clear about what "Judgment Day" means.

Again, from its Charter: "The day of judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews (and kill them), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stone and trees will say, 'O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him'."

What about the possibility more moderate forces will eventually emerge from among the Palestinian, Arab and Muslim worlds to broker peace with Israel?

Again, Hamas rejects this. From its Charter: "Leaving the circle of the struggle with Zionism is high treason and cursed be he who does that ... There is no way out" except for jihad.

Scary,hateful,pathetic,barbaric......these are my words to describe what Hamas stands for.

[jbg]

Somebody out there seems to be a great fan of Mark Twain:

- first "give" them their own gas;

- then trade them (some of) their own land;

Wonder what could be next in this progression of neverending generosity?

So I guess you're admitting your belief that israel shouldn't be there, that this is not just about a return to "1967 boundaries"?

[eyeball]

Hamas is also very clear about what "Judgment Day" means.

Don't worry, be happy!

Kumbiya ya'll.

[myata]

So I guess you're admitting your belief that israel shouldn't be there, that this is not just about a return to "1967 boundaries"?

And that was concluded by what super-lateral leap of logic? The right of anybody for anything can be achieved in one of the two chief strategies: 1) peaceful negotitiations with others who own/want the same thing; or 2) force. It's quite obvious which of the two is being used. Does it give somebody automatic "right" for something? I don't know. Does it really matter? If force is the (only) "rightful" tool, then anybody has the right for anything they can grab (and hold), that answers all questions once and for all time.

[BC_chick]

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/G...952431-sun.html

Somewhere I read a silly comment by BC chick that Hamas merely wants a return to the 1967 borders and there will be peace.Here's a sample of the Hamas mindset:As the Hamas Charter states: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it has obliterated others before it ... the land of Israel is an Islamic Waqf, consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgment Day."

Timelines are not your forte, are they?

From your link:

Please, Google it and read it. Released in 1988, the Charter is the constitution of Hamas. Knowing what it says helps one understand that while peace between Israel and Hamas -- as opposed to temporary "truces" where Hamas simply reloads -- would be wonderful, at present, it's impossible.

Why? Because while the world calls for a two-state solution in the region -- a secure Israel living in peace beside an independent Palestine -- Hamas calls for the obliteration of Israel and its replacement by an Islamic waqf.

As the Hamas Charter states: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it has obliterated others before it ... the land of Israel is an Islamic Waqf, consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgment Day."

My 'silly' comment was documented almost 20 years later:

By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem

Last Updated: 2:00AM GMT 13 Jan 2006

Hamas has dropped its long-standing call for Israel to be replaced by an Islamic state in its manifesto for this month's Palestinian elections.

The document, one of the rare occasions when Hamas has declared its policies in writing, does not repeat a tenet of its founding charter that all land west of the Jordan river should be part of an Islamic Palestinian state.

The wording suggests that Hamas is committed to watering down some of the policies that led to it being proscribed by Israel, America and the European Union as a terrorist organisation.

But the manifesto has not been totally cleansed of controversial language. It supports an armed struggle to regain Palestinian land, a struggle that involved numerous Hamas suicide bombs.

The manifesto appears to commit Hamas to a position that has been hinted at by its leadership over the past few years, namely an armed struggle to regain land lost in the 1967 Six Day War to form a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...poll-nears.html

Say what you want about their methods, but calling for the destruction of Israel is NO LONGER part of their charter. But feel free to continue citing untrue and deliberately misleading propaganda. Whatever allows you ease your conscious about the current SLAUGHTER in Gaza.

Edited January 11, 2009 by BC_chick

[jbg]

Say what you want about their methods, but calling for the destruction of Israel is NO LONGER part of their charter. But feel free to continue citing untrue and deliberately misleading propaganda. Whatever allows you ease your conscious about the current SLAUGHTER in Gaza.

The "removal" from their Charter is unpublicized, ambiguous and questionable.

But BC, can you show me your posts where you showed such outrage at Russia's violation of Georgia's rights? Or their current violation of Ukraine's rights?

The posts in invisible font?

[myata]

can you show me your posts where you showed such outrage at Russia's violation of Georgia's rights?

Wait a minute, exactly what "rights"? To conquer separatist regions by force and blood? Would them be the same "rights" for which Milosevic ended up in the Haag tribunal, and Saddam - in the noose? How exactly does this "justice" work?

I'm not sure what more can be added about the conflict itself, which was created by unilateral violent settlement and taking of lands already populated by other people, settlement and taking, encouraged and condoned by the West (this much at least is well established).

But our branding of Russia's role in the Georgia's aventure as grossly "disproportionate", while Israel's in Lebanon and Gaza, as ostensibly, perfectly legitimate and proportionate (not to mention our own little adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq, in which uncounted thousands have perished) indeed speaks volumes - no, not about Russia, Israel, or even Hamas - but our own rationality and sanity.

[jbg]

But our branding of Russia's role in the Georgia's aventure as grossly "disproportionate", while Israel's in Lebanon and Gaza, as ostensibly, perfectly legitimate and proportionate (not to mention our own little adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq, in which uncounted thousands have perished) indeed speaks volumes - no, not about Russia, Israel, or even Hamas - but our own rationality and sanity.

This post is very difficult to follow. Is Canadian your first language?

[WIP]

Okay, there are just too many war threads going for me to remember which one I was posting on -- anyway, I have one question for the Hamas apologists that I forgot to ask last time: if Israel's closing of the borders with Gaza is one of the reasons that excuses them to launch a few rockets, what about Egypt's border with Gaza? Why is it closed, and why are they refusing to allow more than a handful of Gaza refugees into their territory?

[myata]

This post is very difficult to follow. Is Canadian your first language?

Thought so (btw I can't stop being amazed at that very special sort of individuals in whom severe lack of basic comprehension only serves as a strong amplifier of their wish to communicate... no matter what).

[myata]

Okay, there are just too many war threads going for me to remember which one I was posting on -- anyway, I have one question for the Hamas apologists that I forgot to ask last time: if Israel's closing of the borders with Gaza is one of the reasons that excuses them to launch a few rockets, what about Egypt's border with Gaza? Why is it closed, and why are they refusing to allow more than a handful of Gaza refugees into their territory?

First off, I'm not an apologist of Hamas or anybody, specifically, not of some of their methods. Thought I'd state it right from the start, to avoid any potential confusion. But here's the facts:

#1 To this day there's no peace agreement between Israel and the indigenous people who lived in the lands before its creation ("Palestinians"). The state of Israel was created in a violent and unilateral manner.

#2 The land is being occupied and illegally settled by the state of Israel.

#3 The boundaries and landscapes of population settlements are defined solely by the state of Israel.

#4 Which makes everyday life of ordinary Palestinian life, in the West bank and particularly Gaza, an ongoing hardship.

Neither West bank, with it's network of settlements and blocks, nor Gaza, shut between the sea, and Israel proper, are viable territorial arrangements for survival and prosperity of the indigenous population. Many have noticed, that if anything, it should remind us of the practiced used in the apartheid South Africa.

People of Palestine have normal human right to live in their own lands, in dignity, where they would be the sole masters of their survival and prosperity. Until that condition is achieved, people of Palestine have a case to struggle against the occupation. While I cannot support some methods some of them use in this struggle (such as use of violence against civilian population), or may not find other methods adequate or efficient, it in no way diminshes the fact that the struggle itself is the result of inhuman conditions of their life. The only long term solution to this problem is a fair settlement that would result in a viable state where Palestinians could live in dignity and be the sole masters of their life. Given the facts (1-4, above), in essentuality the responsibility for initiating such settlement (I repeat: it has to be fair above all) stands with the occupying power (and those powers which support it). The longer it takes to realize, the longer the confilict will continue, and more life will be lost.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

They were invited to stay when the state was created. Most elected to leave.

[myata]

Does it change any of the facts as listed previously?

[WIP]

First off, I'm not an apologist of Hamas or anybody, specifically, not of some of their methods. Thought I'd state it right from the start, to avoid any potential confusion. But here's the facts:

Did you read my question? I was asking why Egypt keeps their border closed. Nevermind, it apparently it has something to do with the power struggle between Hamas and Fatah:

El-Sakr strongly defended Egyptian policymakers, pointing out that they maintained permanent contacts with Hamas and Fatah with a view to closing ranks and promoting reconciliation.

"Egypt has done its utmost to achieve Palestinian reconciliation and open the Rafah crossing legally but divisions among Palestinians remain deep," said El-Sakr. He urged Fatah and Hamas to respond positively to Cairo's overtures.........

Mohamed Ragab, NDP spokesman in the Shura Council, warned that the opening of the Rafah crossing would be a major security headache.

"Israel and Hamas both try to export the problems of Gaza to Egypt," said Ragab, who accused the regimes of Iran and Syria of mobilising street demonstrations in front of Egypt's embassies in Beirut and Damascus.

Minister of Health Hatem El-Gabali accused Hamas of exploiting the Israeli massacre in Gaza for political ends.

"They did this by making use of some media channels and at the expense of the suffering of the Palestinians," said El-Gabali, who revealed that in the first three days of Israel's attacks Hamas had refused to send Palestinian casualties to Egyptian hospitals.

"They insisted the injured be treated in Gaza's hospitals although the capacity to treat them effectively was not there," said El-Gabali. He also pointed out that the Rafah crossing is open to allow tones of medical supplies into Gaza. Egypt has sent more than 100 ambulances to the Rafah crossing and more than 500 Egyptian doctors are ready to go to Gaza and help treat injured Palestinians.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/929/eg4.htm

That last paragraph about Hamas refusing to allow sick and injured civilians to go to Egyptian hospitals, and refuse to let Egyptian doctors into Gaza! Now, am I wrong to conclude that Hamas is deliberately creating a humanitarian crisis?

#1 To this day there's no peace agreement between Israel and the indigenous people who lived in the lands before its creation ("Palestinians"). The state of Israel was created in a violent and unilateral manner.

Are you aware that there was also an indigenous Jewish population in Palestine, centered in the old city of Jerusalem during that time?

#2 The land is being occupied and illegally settled by the state of Israel.

There are no Jewish settlements left in Gaza!

#3 The boundaries and landscapes of population settlements are defined solely by the state of Israel.

Doesn't seem like there's much of a choice, under the present circumstances! If the Palestinians had the upper hand, would there be any Jews left there?

#4 Which makes everyday life of ordinary Palestinian life, in the West bank and particularly Gaza, an ongoing hardship.

No doubt, but judging from the fact that their government has started a war, and refuses aid from neighbouring Egypt to help their civilian population -- how much of the misery is self-inflicted?

[myata]

Did you read my question? I was asking why Egypt keeps their border closed. Nevermind, it apparently it has something to do with the power struggle between Hamas and Fatah:

What does it have to do with Israel's slaughter in Gaza? A distraction? I guess..

Are you aware that there was also an indigenous Jewish population in Palestine, centered in the old city of Jerusalem during that time?

There's any number of any ethnicities in almost any country. Does it give them the right to start an uprising, expel the locals and declare independent state? Maybe in your view... I hope it's consistent then, i.e. also applies to other situations.

There are no Jewish settlements left in Gaza!

Which hasn't made life of population any better. It's a tiny unclave isolated thanks to Israel's occupation from West bank, with no viable economic prospects because of blocade. Is it any wonder that the population is desperate and many involve themselves in fight with the occupation, however desperate it may be.

Doesn't seem like there's much of a choice, under the present circumstances!

That phrase can justify pretty much anything. Depending on one's evaluation of "present circumstances". As it did so many times in the past.

If the Palestinians had the upper hand, would there be any Jews left there?

And who would have shown the example? Opened the way? But wait, how do you know? Have Israel actually tried to present a fair and viable peace deal already? Not to mention, an apology for the injustices of the past?

[segnosaur]

Timelines are not your forte, are they?

From your link:

My 'silly' comment was documented almost 20 years later:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...poll-nears.html

Say what you want about their methods, but calling for the destruction of Israel is NO LONGER part of their charter. But feel free to continue citing untrue and deliberately misleading propaganda. Whatever allows you ease your conscious about the current SLAUGHTER in Gaza.

First of all, if you read the article you referenced, states:

The manifesto appears to commit Hamas to a position that has been hinted at by its leadership over the past few years, namely an armed struggle to regain land lost in the 1967 Six Day War to form a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital.

The issue of land lost in 1948 with the creation of Israel would then be dealt with by future generations of Hamas leadership.

The group's founding charter remains unchanged, predicting that Israel will suffer the same fate as the Crusader kingdoms in the Holy Land in the Middle Ages.

So, from the sounds of it, Hamas isn't necessarily saying that it recognizes the right of Israel to exist; instead, it looks like its trying to eliminate Israel in stages... first of all, to set up a separate country, and THEN to take the rest of Israel. So instead of a one step conquest, they do it in 2 steps.

Secondly, its hard to take this as proof of Hamas being significantly less radical when they willfully broadcast the children's television show "Tomorrow's Pioneers", which has such dialog as "You and I are laying the foundation for a world led by Islamists".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers

[WIP]

What does it have to do with Israel's slaughter in Gaza? A distraction? I guess..

It has a lot to do with deciding who his the primary source of suffering in Gaza and the West Bank! You have offered nothing to demonstrate that either Hamas or Fatah are interested in anything other than fighting a war of attrition with Israel. But you are only interested in framing the story as Jews oppressing Palestinians, regardless of the evidence!

There's any number of any ethnicities in almost any country. Does it give them the right to start an uprising, expel the locals and declare independent state? Maybe in your view... I hope it's consistent then, i.e. also applies to other situations.

As a rule, I don't believe in nation-building based on ethnic or religious reasons, but I see no indication that the Palestinians, and most surrounding Arab states, would allow Jews to remain and enjoy their present rights and freedoms in any kind of One State Solution. I have heard the mythology that Jews and Arabs lived peacefully before the creation of Israel, and the evidence from the pogroms and massacres such as the one that wiped out the Jewish community in Hebron in 1929, show it to be groundless -- the real evidence is that the small community of Jews in Palestine lived a precarious existence for centuries, depending on the whims of local potentates.

Which hasn't made life of population any better. It's a tiny unclave isolated thanks to Israel's occupation from West bank, with no viable economic prospects because of blocade. Is it any wonder that the population is desperate and many involve themselves in fight with the occupation, however desperate it may be.

Do you realize that Israel itself is a tiny enclave surrounded by Muslim Arab neighbours -- the majority of whom believe that their religion should guarantee their religious dominance and political control of the entire area? They have continuously rejected any form of Jewish state, regardless of its size, all through the 20th Century -- they didn't even accept the 1947 proposal the British made to divide Palestine, that didn't even give the Jews access to Jerusalem! If that was too much for them to accept, is it reasonable to expect non-koolaid drinkers to believe that they would accept the existence of Jews and Jewish state, regardless of the borders?

In the latest chapter of this story, the reasons why Ariel Sharon drew the ire of both the peace activists and the religious zealots was that he decided that the Israeli borders at the time would become undefensable in the future. Sharon, and likely the majority of Israelis since then have decided that they would have to pull back to defensible borders with walls and roadblocks or face either continued non-stop terrorist attacks or eventual demographic death through Arab overpopulation.

Again, I don't like the concept of ethnic states, and there have been Israeli judges and political scientists over the decades who have tried to grapple with the dichotomy of trying to have a democratic state while maintaining Jewish control. It is already a very costly exercise monetarily and in lives lost, for Israel to maintain its present status as a modern-day Sparta; if the eventual choice is one of kill or be killed, will they be willing to use ethnic cleansing out of desperation? I don't know, maybe, or maybe they will do what some Zionists wanted to do just after WWII -- try to find an empty, less contentious tract of land, and leave that rat's nest over there for the Arabs to fight and squabble over, like they had been doing for centuries until the rise of the modern zionist movement.

[myata]

It has a lot to do with deciding who his the primary source of suffering in Gaza and the West Bank!

Do you mean that it's Egypt that's bombing and shelling Gaza as we (speak) write here?

You have offered nothing to demonstrate that either Hamas or Fatah are interested in anything other than fighting a war of attrition with Israel.

I offered some common knowledge, established facts. That exactly is that what you "offered"?

As a rule, I don't believe in nation-building based on ethnic or religious reasons, but I see no indication that the Palestinians, and most surrounding Arab states, would allow Jews to remain and enjoy their present rights and freedoms in any kind of One State Solution. I have heard the mythology that Jews and Arabs lived peacefully before the creation of Israel, and the evidence from the pogroms and massacres such as the one that wiped out the Jewish community in Hebron in 1929, show it to be groundless -- the real evidence is that the small community of Jews in Palestine lived a precarious existence for centuries, depending on the whims of local potentates.

So you support the right of any minority to unilaterally proclaim and forcefully establish independent state, if they have some justification (e.g. ethinic frictions, conflicts, etc), as most minorities do? Yes or no? Does it apply everythere in a universal manner, or only to certain specific minorities? Who decides which ones? How?

Do you realize that Israel itself is a tiny enclave surrounded by Muslim Arab neighbours -- the majority of whom believe that their religion should guarantee their religious dominance and political control of the entire area? They have continuously rejected any form of Jewish state, regardless of its size, all through the 20th Century -- they didn't even accept the 1947 proposal the British made to divide Palestine, that didn't even give the Jews access to Jerusalem! If that was too much for them to accept,

The history question has been addressed in detail, including mass immigration of non native population into the area. I have no wish to reiterate, please feel free to search in the old threads. You're also free to challenge any of the four basic facts listed earlier, with sufficient evidence.

Again, I don't like the concept of ethnic states, and there have been Israeli judges and political scientists over the decades who have tried to grapple with the dichotomy of trying to have a democratic state while maintaining Jewish control. It is already a very costly exercise monetarily and in lives lost, for Israel to maintain its present status as a modern-day Sparta; if the eventual choice is one of kill or be killed, will they be willing to use ethnic cleansing out of desperation? I don't know, maybe, or maybe they will do what some Zionists wanted to do just after WWII -- try to find an empty, less contentious tract of land, and leave that rat's nest over there for the Arabs to fight and squabble over, like they had been doing for centuries until the rise of the modern zionist movement.

A much easier solution would be of course, for Israel to come to terms with the fact that they created a historic injustice to the local people and offer a fair and reasonable peace that would allow both sides to live in their own lands and at least co-exists.

Why is it harder than kill and ethnic cleanse, or depart for search of other, "less contentious" lands, I can't quite figure out. Fortunately, I don't have to.