West Hill Warriors is offensive?

[Mr.Canada]

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/t...-offensive.aspx

White Liberal guilt has again reared its head. Why do these teachers seem to think that everything is offensive?

How is a Native Warrior who is proud and fearless insulting to Natives?

Many Full Status Indians have been contacted and are not at all offended by the names. So why are these teachers taking it upon themselves to change this name without consulting First Nations people?

[kengs333]

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/t...-offensive.aspx

White Liberal guilt has again reared its head. Why do these teachers seem to think that everything is offensive?

How is a Native Warrior who is proud and fearless insulting to Natives?

Many Full Status Indians have been contacted and are not at all offended by the names. So why are these teachers taking it upon themselves to change this name without consulting First Nations people?

So why does the name have to be changed. There are "warriors" in non-Indian cultures, too. Or are they trying to kill two birds with one stone?

It wouldn't surprise me if the new name will be Queers or Lesbian Feminists.

[Kitch]

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/t...-offensive.aspx

White Liberal guilt has again reared its head. Why do these teachers seem to think that everything is offensive?

How is a Native Warrior who is proud and fearless insulting to Natives?

Many Full Status Indians have been contacted and are not at all offended by the names. So why are these teachers taking it upon themselves to change this name without consulting First Nations people?

Bud, stop labelling everything that you don't agree with as 'liberal'. And by "these" teachers, I REALLY hope you're not implying teachers in general. I said HOPE, I didn't accuse you.

These particular teachers may be overly sensitive (not necessarily liberal). And it's not wrong to question whether the group depicted is offended. To assume and move on that assumption is unnecessary though.

[Mr.Canada]

Bud, stop labelling everything that you don't agree with as 'liberal'. And by "these" teachers, I REALLY hope you're not implying teachers in general. I said HOPE, I didn't accuse you.

These particular teachers may be overly sensitive (not necessarily liberal). And it's not wrong to question whether the group depicted is offended. To assume and move on that assumption is unnecessary though.

No Kitch not all teachers as I know that you are one. I believe I said a certain committee of teacher that decides these things. The name of their group escapes me at present but they travel the Province doing this as they have done with two schools in metro already this year. Runnymede and David and Mary Thompson. They were both 'The Red men". That is a little more understandable. I just seems petty to me.

No native groups were even approached and asked if this offended them, they just took it upon themselves to make it an issue. Seems like White Liberal guilt is neutering us as a whole. It makes us look like wimps in my opinion. That everyone is so sensitive to everything. A lot of First Nations people have been contacted about this and do not feel offended at all by the logo and are proud of the fact that 53 years ago, when this school opened that they would pay homage to the brave Natives that used to reside in that area for centuries.

Edit- Whats next PETA coming up and saying that schools or teams cannot use animals as their names either because it offends animals? It is getting out of control.

Edited October 29, 2008 by Mr.Canada

[Kitch]

No Kitch not all teachers as I know that you are one. I believe I said a certain committee of teacher that decides these things. The name of their group escapes me at present but they travel the Province doing this as they have done with two schools in metro already this year. Runnymede and David and Mary Thompson. They were both 'The Red men". That is a little more understandable. I just seems petty to me.

No native groups were even approached and asked if this offended them, they just took it upon themselves to make it an issue. Seems like White Liberal guilt is neutering us as a whole. It makes us look like wimps in my opinion. That everyone is so sensitive to everything. A lot of First Nations people have been contacted about this and do not feel offended at all by the logo and are proud of the fact that 53 years ago, when this school opened that they would pay homage to the brave Natives that used to reside in that area for centuries.

Edit- Whats next PETA coming up and saying that schools or teams cannot use animals as their names either because it offends animals? It is getting out of control.

Dude, again... White Liberal guilt? I consider myself to be very liberal (not a supporter of the party!)... I am definitely sensitive (to the point of being a wimp)... and I am white... but I don't think that the name and logo at West Hill is offensive!!! So it's guilt felt by some group of people, if you MUST identify a group, that have this cause in common and not necessarily their political views!!

Red men is offensive. It could be considered a derogatory racial label. Those schools should have changed their names. But I don't think West Hill needs to. I live 5 minutes away from West Hill C.I. (and Thomson... without a 'p') and I didn't even know what their school logos were!

Stop labelling everything that you disagree with liberal!! What do you mean it makes "us" look like wimps? Who is "us" and why do you care what you look like to whoever it is you're trying to keep up appearances for?

[Mr.Canada]

Dude, again... White Liberal guilt? I consider myself to be very liberal (not a supporter of the party!)... I am definitely sensitive (to the point of being a wimp)... and I am white... but I don't think that the name and logo at West Hill is offensive!!! So it's guilt felt by some group of people, if you MUST identify a group, that have this cause in common and not necessarily their political views!!

Red men is offensive. It could be considered a derogatory racial label. Those schools should have changed their names. But I don't think West Hill needs to. I live 5 minutes away from West Hill C.I. (and Thomson... without a 'p') and I didn't even know what their school logos were!

Stop labelling everything that you disagree with liberal!! What do you mean it makes "us" look like wimps? Who is "us" and why do you care what you look like to whoever it is you're trying to keep up appearances for?

Kitch, knock it off, lol.

These overly sensitive teachers must feel some white liberal guilt about their ancestors oppressing these poor natives, why else would they care?

You're right it is without a p, my mother went there, back in the 60's.

I don't label everything I disagree with as liberal, give me a break Kitch, lol. It make Canadians as a whole look like overly sensitive babies who need a grief counselor cause we scraped our knee. Drives me crazy.

I'm fairly liberal as well. Ok maybe not.

I enjoy your posts Kitch.

[Wild Bill]

Dude, again... White Liberal guilt? I consider myself to be very liberal (not a supporter of the party!)... I am definitely sensitive (to the point of being a wimp)... and I am white... but I don't think that the name and logo at West Hill is offensive!!! So it's guilt felt by some group of people, if you MUST identify a group, that have this cause in common and not necessarily their political views!!

Red men is offensive. It could be considered a derogatory racial label. Those schools should have changed their names. But I don't think West Hill needs to. I live 5 minutes away from West Hill C.I. (and Thomson... without a 'p') and I didn't even know what their school logos were!

Stop labelling everything that you disagree with liberal!! What do you mean it makes "us" look like wimps? Who is "us" and why do you care what you look like to whoever it is you're trying to keep up appearances for?

It's funny how words get twisted or even shanghai'd by certain groups to change their meaning over the years. Gay once meant happy, after all.

Being an older guy, I've been following the change with "liberal" for some decades now, at least as regards to politics. There of course is a dictionary definition of political liberal but that is almost always ignored in Canada, since the Liberal Party here has had little or no connection to that definition for a LONG time, if ever! Myself, I'm more of a classic Liberal and yet I am constantly labeled a conservative. Few understand dictionary definitions anymore. It's all in what team jersey you wear.

Today in many circles "Liberal" has become a pejorative. There seem to be several reasons, one being a reaction to a trend from the 70's to equate being conservative with being some kind of fascist. Another might be the rise of unexpected negative consequences to many politically correct approaches to social problems, such as easy parole allowing repeated crimes, sometimes violent as we saw with the latest in Toronto, where some poor innocent was hit by a stray bullet outside a nightclub by a repeat violent offender.

To many, "Liberal" has come to mean anything that sounds warm and fuzzy but has no chance of working. A conservative type might share a liberal's horror at a Marc LePine going on a mad murderous shooting spree at a school in Quebec. However, when he sees more gun control legislation being instituted, it doesn't look to him like a positive step. It looks like more than just a waste of time and money. It can look like a diversion from doing something that might work! The "Liberal" is happy because something appears to have been done, content with the symbolism but not making the effort to look at the substance. The "conservative" feels cheated. He sees a "feel good" approach being implemented rather than an effective one. If he sees some "gang banger" who killed a bystander in Toronto being given a light sentence in court he becomes convinced of his view.

To make it worse, in much of media circles conservatives were ridiculed for being against approaches like more gun laws. They get labeled as being against the goal of making society safer, when they really were questioning the approach to achieve that goal.

So now the pendulum has swung and to be a Liberal means having a head full of noble goals with totally impractical methods of achieving them. Extremists on the right, particularly in the USA, substitute "Liberal" into "blonde" jokes as far as social and political policy.

Look at the last election campaign. Layton tied Harper to Bush ever chance he got, not because he could show they have the same political philosophy but simply because Bush has a bad name in Canada and Jack wanted to stick it on Harper.

Look at the Tories bleating "tax and spend Liberals"!

Nowadays we see too much name calling instead of constructive debate. Thank heavens for this board! It isn't perfect but if you ever get discouraged spend some time at "rubble.com" and you'll appreciate it more. Other such boards are perfect examples of ad hominem practices.

[jbg]

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/t...-offensive.aspx

White Liberal guilt has again reared its head. Why do these teachers seem to think that everything is offensive?

How is a Native Warrior who is proud and fearless insulting to Natives?

Many Full Status Indians have been contacted and are not at all offended by the names. So why are these teachers taking it upon themselves to change this name without consulting First Nations people?

I'm more offended by two Peterborough, ON schoolteachers I met in NYC at a Great Big Sea concert who didn't know who Montcalm and Wolfe were. It is offensive that a Yank who knows little or nothing about Canada had to teach the teachers the most basic Canadian history.

[Kitch]

Kitch, knock it off, lol.

These overly sensitive teachers must feel some white liberal guilt about their ancestors oppressing these poor natives, why else would they care?

You're right it is without a p, my mother went there, back in the 60's.

I don't label everything I disagree with as liberal, give me a break Kitch, lol. It make Canadians as a whole look like overly sensitive babies who need a grief counselor cause we scraped our knee. Drives me crazy.

I'm fairly liberal as well. Ok maybe not.

I enjoy your posts Kitch.

I'm glad you enjoy! I'm sure I piss some people off too. (I get a little emotional/passionate too).

But dude, let's discuss, then, what you mean by "white liberal guilt". Is it simply feeling bad for what our ancestors did to natives? Does this mean that part of the conservative paradigm is to not experience such guilt? It's simply a group of teachers (and whoever else they're working with) who feel that the symbol is offensive. That's their opinion and they are entitled to it. But these people do not represent Canada. And if they did, why do you really care? What does it mean that it makes "us" look like overly sensitive babies? And who are you so worried about holding this opinion of us?

[Kitch]

I'm more offended by two Peterborough, ON schoolteachers I met in NYC at a Great Big Sea concert who didn't know who Montcalm and Wolfe were. It is offensive that a Yank who knows little or nothing about Canada had to teach the teachers the most basic Canadian history.

Well, we as Canadians, at least the people that I associate with, don't really know a lot about the specifics of Canadian history. Meaning we (my circle) don't care a lot about wars that happened in the distant past. Generally, 'we' know that Canada was where the loyalists came before/during the American revolution, and that there was a war between the English and French which the English won.

Also, it's not fair to expect a teacher to be a history buff either. I'm a science teacher and don't ever discuss Canadian history with my students. If I was an elementary teacher, perhaps I'd need to know some more about history, but what level would a grade 6 kid need to understand the specifics? Only a high school/university level educator, in my opinion, would need to have a great understanding of the subject.

What, exactly, is the importance in knowing what happened in specific battles... or knowing about what I described in any more detail than I described it?

[Kitch]

It's funny how words get twisted or even shanghai'd by certain groups to change their meaning over the years. Gay once meant happy, after all.

Being an older guy, I've been following the change with "liberal" for some decades now, at least as regards to politics. There of course is a dictionary definition of political liberal but that is almost always ignored in Canada, since the Liberal Party here has had little or no connection to that definition for a LONG time, if ever! Myself, I'm more of a classic Liberal and yet I am constantly labeled a conservative. Few understand dictionary definitions anymore. It's all in what team jersey you wear.

Today in many circles "Liberal" has become a pejorative. There seem to be several reasons, one being a reaction to a trend from the 70's to equate being conservative with being some kind of fascist. Another might be the rise of unexpected negative consequences to many politically correct approaches to social problems, such as easy parole allowing repeated crimes, sometimes violent as we saw with the latest in Toronto, where some poor innocent was hit by a stray bullet outside a nightclub by a repeat violent offender.

To many, "Liberal" has come to mean anything that sounds warm and fuzzy but has no chance of working. A conservative type might share a liberal's horror at a Marc LePine going on a mad murderous shooting spree at a school in Quebec. However, when he sees more gun control legislation being instituted, it doesn't look to him like a positive step. It looks like more than just a waste of time and money. It can look like a diversion from doing something that might work! The "Liberal" is happy because something appears to have been done, content with the symbolism but not making the effort to look at the substance. The "conservative" feels cheated. He sees a "feel good" approach being implemented rather than an effective one. If he sees some "gang banger" who killed a bystander in Toronto being given a light sentence in court he becomes convinced of his view.

To make it worse, in much of media circles conservatives were ridiculed for being against approaches like more gun laws. They get labeled as being against the goal of making society safer, when they really were questioning the approach to achieve that goal.

So now the pendulum has swung and to be a Liberal means having a head full of noble goals with totally impractical methods of achieving them. Extremists on the right, particularly in the USA, substitute "Liberal" into "blonde" jokes as far as social and political policy.

Look at the last election campaign. Layton tied Harper to Bush ever chance he got, not because he could show they have the same political philosophy but simply because Bush has a bad name in Canada and Jack wanted to stick it on Harper.

Look at the Tories bleating "tax and spend Liberals"!

Nowadays we see too much name calling instead of constructive debate. Thank heavens for this board! It isn't perfect but if you ever get discouraged spend some time at "rubble.com" and you'll appreciate it more. Other such boards are perfect examples of ad hominem practices.

I agree that our understanding of certain words is diverse. I don't necessarily disagree with your definitions, but they are YOUR definitions. I'd like nothing more than to engage in this conversation about the meaning of different political/philosophical paradigms... but it seems that there aren't many people willing to do so. Many are happy with knowing what they know and knowing that other people are wrong. But I'd enjoy it if you started a new thread and tried to have that discussion anyway!

[Mr.Canada]

I'm glad you enjoy! I'm sure I piss some people off too. (I get a little emotional/passionate too).

But dude, let's discuss, then, what you mean by "white liberal guilt". Is it simply feeling bad for what our ancestors did to natives? Does this mean that part of the conservative paradigm is to not experience such guilt? It's simply a group of teachers (and whoever else they're working with) who feel that the symbol is offensive. That's their opinion and they are entitled to it. But these people do not represent Canada. And if they did, why do you really care? What does it mean that it makes "us" look like overly sensitive babies? And who are you so worried about holding this opinion of us?

White guilt refers to the concept of individual or collective guilt often said to be felt by some White people for the perceived racist treatment of people of color by Whites both historically and presently. Source

I problem is that these teachers are not just stating their opinion but demanding it be change because "they" don't like it. Most natives aren't offended by it so who exactly are they representing?

I don't think that every aspect of Canadian life needs to be sanitized, it takes away who we are as a nation.

The world view of Canada is what I care about. Our enemies must be laughing their heads off at us. Perhaps you don't care how we appear to the world but many people do in fact. If you don't have a sense of national Pride that's unfortunate I hope you aren't poisoning your students with this apathy.

No more Lord's Prayer in school, no more National Anthem in school, no more Christmas parties, no more writing about Christmas stuff in school, no more saying Merry Christmas, no more CHristmas Trees, no more talking about Easter, no more school names that dignify people, no more Valentines for pete sakes and the list goes on and on. Our children are being robbed of their childhood by this programming.

These people are taking away everything because they perceive that it may be making some people uncomfortable. These groups aren't complaining at all yet these white liberal teachers are lobbying constantly. That is my problem.

Which is why I will be inspecting closely the school that my children will be potentially going to. I don't want them poisoned by these liberals with their socialist ideals telling kids they are all the same which isn't at all close to being true. I'm putting them in Catholic school so the chance goes down but if that doesn't work they'll be going to a private school. When I want to school they tried to program me as well but I rebelled against it as best I could.

[Kitch]

I don't know how fruitful this will be, but I'm going to try.

White guilt refers to the concept of individual or collective guilt often said to be felt by some White people for the perceived racist treatment of people of color by Whites both historically and presently.

I problem is that these teachers are not just stating their opinion but demanding it be change because "they" don't like it. Most natives aren't offended by it so who exactly are they representing?

White guilt... not necessarily 'liberal' white guilt. Feeling guilty about the way Natives were treated in the past is something many people claim to feel but are truly... apathetic.

So dude, your beef is with THESE teachers. Not some stigmatized group of people who you've accused. You refer to liberal/socialist teachers. Well, you know what? I would probably fit your description of THAT group. I don't think this logo is offensive. Nor do the teachers, who are also what you'd describe as liberal, that I know who are advocating for KEEPING the logo. I read a poem written by some student somewhere, distributed by a Native studies teacher that is an appeal to those trying to get rid of the logo... an appeal to KEEP it. These are liberal teachers who are on the same side as you... in this case. So please don't use the word 'liberal' in a derogatory fashion to describe how teachers are ruining YOUR world!

I don't think that every aspect of Canadian life needs to be sanitized, it takes away who we are as a nation.

The world view of Canada is what I care about. Our enemies must be laughing their heads off at us. Perhaps you don't care how we appear to the world but many people do in fact. If you don't have a sense of national Pride that's unfortunate I hope you aren't poisoning your students with this apathy.

There are different people who try to, as you say, sanitize Canadian society. However these are different people with different agendas and you're trying to consolidate them into one 'enemy'. And that enemy, to you, is liberals... even though many people who you brand as such are on your side in some cases.

In fact, I DON'T have a 'real' sense of national pride. That does not mean that I am apathetic by any means. (And to give you a lesson in logic, me not caring what other people in other nations think of how Canadians choose to live their lives does not make me apathetic in the LEAST to the problems that we have in our society... why would I be here discussing these things otherwise?).

I don't really even know what it means to have a sense of pride for your country. Canada is a land mass that MANY people call home. Those people are diverse in every way from ethnicity to political views to taste in food! What is it, exactly, that we all have in common that we can use to identify us as "Canadian"? We live in Canada... that's about it. So, perhaps we can have pride in our chosen way of life, meaning that we're proud of the laws that have been decided on by our collective society. INCLUDING the freedom to choose how one lives and the freedom to express oneself. So the reason that I say I have no 'real' sense of national pride is because I have trouble with that definition... NOT that I'm apathetic.

No more Lord's Prayer in school, no more National Anthem in school, no more Christmas parties, no more writing about Christmas stuff in school, no more saying Merry Christmas, no more CHristmas Trees, no more talking about Easter, no more school names that dignify people, no more Valentines for pete sakes and the list goes on and on. Our children are being robbed of their childhood by this programming.

These people are taking away everything because they perceive that it may be making some people uncomfortable. These groups aren't complaining at all yet these white liberal teachers are lobbying constantly. That is my problem.

It's funny that the majority of the things that you've listed are christian traditions. I, personally, have no problem with most of those symbols. Nor do I have a problem with anyone displaying ANY symbol that they choose. I, though, don't like the idea of the lord's prayer being said in any institution that is publicly funded. I'm Canadian. I am almost everything that you would describe as a typical Canadian. But I am atheist. Why should I have to partake in some religious tradition that I choose not to? Why should other people be forced to do so? Particularly kids who are too young to make a decision about what religion, if any, they want to follow? What does religion have to do with the law anyway? Why should any prayers be said before our law makers begin the process of law making?

Also, the national anthem is indeed played every day in every publicly funded school. It's not, however, in every private school.

Which is why I will be inspecting closely the school that my children will be potentially going to. I don't want them poisoned by these liberals with their socialist ideals telling kids they are all the same which isn't at all close to being true. I'm putting them in Catholic school so the chance goes down but if that doesn't work they'll be going to a private school. When I want to school they tried to program me as well but I rebelled against it as best I could.

If you're so worried about the indoctrination of your kids, why don't you indoctrinate them using your own mold? The diversity of teachers mirrors the diversity of Canadian society, in EVERY way! Exposure to ideas is not a bad thing. Personally, as a self proclaimed 'liberal', I read as much conservative literature as I can... as well as leftist literature. I tried to... and will finish... Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations". I was recently convinced, by my conservative (future) brother in-law that corporate taxes might be a bad thing. Having an open mind is not a bad thing. Forcing yourself on others very well might be!

"Schools" don't try to "program" students in the way that you're claiming. Read some Ministry curriculum documents and see what is prescribed by law to be taught to kids in public schools. Some teachers will try to force their views on kids... teachers from all positions on a 3D spectrum. Others will simply present ideas and let the kids decide for themselves. Some teachers don't even do this and simply have students read text books... so the students are indoctrinated by what they perceive as 'truth' because it's written in a text book whose authors might have a particular agenda! You don't understand the issues surrounding public education... at least you haven't shown an understanding here. But if you'd like, we can talk about that too. But I can only give my perspective and won't claim to be privileged to any absolute truths.

So in the end, open up your mind and STOP blaming the actions of these particular people on LIBERALS!!!

[Kitch]

White guilt refers to the concept of individual or collective guilt often said to be felt by some White people for the perceived racist treatment of people of color by Whites both historically and presently. Source

I problem is that these teachers are not just stating their opinion but demanding it be change because "they" don't like it. Most natives aren't offended by it so who exactly are they representing?

I don't think that every aspect of Canadian life needs to be sanitized, it takes away who we are as a nation.

The world view of Canada is what I care about. Our enemies must be laughing their heads off at us. Perhaps you don't care how we appear to the world but many people do in fact. If you don't have a sense of national Pride that's unfortunate I hope you aren't poisoning your students with this apathy.

No more Lord's Prayer in school, no more National Anthem in school, no more Christmas parties, no more writing about Christmas stuff in school, no more saying Merry Christmas, no more CHristmas Trees, no more talking about Easter, no more school names that dignify people, no more Valentines for pete sakes and the list goes on and on. Our children are being robbed of their childhood by this programming.

These people are taking away everything because they perceive that it may be making some people uncomfortable. These groups aren't complaining at all yet these white liberal teachers are lobbying constantly. That is my problem.

Which is why I will be inspecting closely the school that my children will be potentially going to. I don't want them poisoned by these liberals with their socialist ideals telling kids they are all the same which isn't at all close to being true. I'm putting them in Catholic school so the chance goes down but if that doesn't work they'll be going to a private school. When I want to school they tried to program me as well but I rebelled against it as best I could.

By the way, you didn't answer my question. Why do you care what other people in other countries think of us here? Why does it bother you if people laugh? (And how do you KNOW this to be true rather than just assume... because that's what you would do if you saw this in other countries?)

[jbg]

What, exactly, is the importance in knowing what happened in specific battles... or knowing about what I described in any more detail than I described it?

I think it's at least important to know the general outlines and results of a battle that more or less cast the die for modern Canada. I'm sure you'd want American students to know all about My Lai, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki etc. and not about Pearl Harbor, September 11 etc.

[Kitch]

I think it's at least important to know the general outlines and results of a battle that more or less cast the die for modern Canada. I'm sure you'd want American students to know all about My Lai, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki etc. and not about Pearl Harbor, September 11 etc.

General outlines yes. But why would we need to know the names of generals, for example. I had to look up Montcalm and Wolfe when you mentioned them before. I knew that there was a war between England (Upper Canada) and France (Lower Canada) which England won and then... 'allowed'?... the French to have their own province in the English colony. Do I, as a citizen, need to know more than that? Maybe I do! As a high school science teacher, though, do I need to be qualified to teach history? Definitely not.

[Mr.Canada]

By the way, you didn't answer my question. Why do you care what other people in other countries think of us here? Why does it bother you if people laugh? (And how do you KNOW this to be true rather than just assume... because that's what you would do if you saw this in other countries?)

It bothers me because I'm not apathetic. I love what this country used to be 25 years ago before the Liberals started their hidden agenda of brainwashing of our young, stripping them of any nationalism and reprogramming them to a religion of secularism and cutting away all traditions that were brought by white Christian people and forced to put others faiths and traditions ahead of what used to be.

Kids today are taught to be self hating and made to feel guilty to have feelings of nationalism, pride of heritage and the upkeep of traditional Canadian values. They are taught to put foreigners religions and traditions ahead of their own or be labeled a racist. Any discussion at all and they're labeled racist. When it should be the other way around. The foreigners are guests in our country and they need to adapt to us. If Canada as is isn't to their liking they should look at emigrating elsewhere. This should have remained policy from day 1.

[Kitch]

It bothers me because I'm not apathetic. I love what this country used to be 25 years ago before the Liberals started their hidden agenda of brainwashing of our young, stripping them of any nationalism and reprogramming them to a religion of secularism and cutting away all traditions that were brought by white Christian people and forced to put others faiths and traditions ahead of what used to be.

Kids today are taught to be self hating and made to feel guilty to have feelings of nationalism, pride of heritage and the upkeep of traditional Canadian values. They are taught to put foreigners religions and traditions ahead of their own or be labeled a racist. Any discussion at all and they're labeled racist. When it should be the other way around. The foreigners are guests in our country and they need to adapt to us. If Canada as is isn't to their liking they should look at emigrating elsewhere. This should have remained policy from day 1.

You answered some question... but not the one that I asked. Try again?

You're wrong about what kids are taught. You're seeing what you want to see because you're upset about your religious traditions. I'M Canadian. I don't want to say 'the' lord's prayer ever, anywhere. So am I now an immigrant that should find another country to call home? Would you please answer that question too?

So you're crying about the liberal party... they're not 'liberal' in any way other than by name. So please stop attributing your disdain for a political party to people, like myself, who are not in any way aligned or affiliated with them.

[Mr.Canada]

You answered some question... but not the one that I asked. Try again?

You're wrong about what kids are taught. You're seeing what you want to see because you're upset about your religious traditions. I'M Canadian. I don't want to say 'the' lord's prayer ever, anywhere. So am I now an immigrant that should find another country to call home? Would you please answer that question too?

So you're crying about the liberal party... they're not 'liberal' in any way other than by name. So please stop attributing your disdain for a political party to people, like myself, who are not in any way aligned or affiliated with them.

You are a product of what I have outlined above thus raised as such with self hatred and white liberal guilt. So naturally you feel that way. This country was founded on Judeo-Christian values whether you like it or not but people like you want to strip all that away. Liberals in Ontario wanted Sharia Law not long ago. They felt so guilty about being ok UK descent that they wanted to scrap our legal system which is based on British common law which in turn is based on Christian values for Sharia Law which is foreign and has never been a part of forming Canada.

Everything went down hill from WWII and on. It's Hitler's fault too. He brought all these issues to the forefront. I he hadn't started the world war none of this crap would've happened. THe 60's hippy movement, from which we have todays world leaders which explains a lot.

Unless I say the LPC I am referring to liberalism in general.

Other than that what other questions do you want answered?

Edited November 2, 2008 by Mr.Canada

[Kitch]

You are a product of what I have outlined above thus raised as such with self hatred and white liberal guilt. So naturally you feel that way. This country was founded on Judeo-Christian values whether you like it or not but people like you want to strip all that away. Liberals in Ontario wanted Sharia Law not long ago. They felt so guilty about being ok UK descent that they wanted to scrap our legal system which is based on British common law which in turn is based on Christian values for Sharia Law which is foreign and has never been a part of forming Canada.

Everything went down hill from WWII and on. It's Hitler's fault too. He brought all these issues to the forefront. I he hadn't started the world war none of this crap would've happened. THe 60's hippy movement, from which we have todays world leaders which explains a lot.

Unless I say the LPC I am referring to liberalism in general.

Other than that what other questions do you want answered?

I have a few questions, I hope that you'll answer them rather than going on rants about unrelated sore spots on your heart.

Who do you think you are to try to tell me how I developed my political/philosophical opinions?

My decision to be atheist had nothing to do with public education. I have been raised with self-hatred? Think again bud. I'm white and liberal and was born in Canada am opposed to censorship (and most attempts to change society in the name of political correctness) and definitely don't blame myself for what happened to Natives, black people or people of any other ethnicity. My family has been here for 3 or 4 generations and, on one side, were very catholic. I have rejected catholicism and the notion of a god. Am I less Canadian????????? SHOULD I FIND ANOTHER HOME?????

Some white people have done terrible things. Does that mean that white people are bad?? NO!!! Me saying so would be equivalent to your assertion that liberals all feel guilty because they're white and white people did bad things in the past. SOME white people have done bad things. If I want to identify those people, I'll identify them as the people who did those things. Just as I identify the teachers who want the West Hill logo changed as the teachers that want the West Hill logo changed. You can't fairly label them as liberals because, although they may be very liberal, their cause isn't something that defines liberals generally!! I'm liberal and it doesn't define me... that refutes your claim!!!

To be honest your reminiscent post makes me believe that you idealize a time when black people weren't considered equal to white people and were often lynched. Can 'white' people be blamed for THAT? NO, but SOME can... the ones who did the lynching and held beliefs leading to it.

Canada was absolutely not founded ON judao-christian values. Most people that came here at the time that this continent was taken over... because the Europeans weren't the first ones here... thus did not, technically, found this place... were likely christian. But British common-law is British common-law. It's not christianity. Again, I'm NOT CHRISTIAN! Am I less Canadian than you?? And maybe some muslim people wanted sharia law to be implemented here. That won't happen, but if you want to read a little bit, check out what has been done:

Read under How did Shariah come to be considered in Canadian jurisdictions?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/islam/shariah-law.html

You've taken this a long way from a school logo. You've blamed people who deserve no blame and tried to stigmatize a group of people that doesn't really exist. I am VERY liberal... at least in my understanding of the word. You and I... and everyone else have different meanings of this word, and claim it to describe us to varying degrees.

[Mr.Canada]

Alright, I'm starting to repeat myself so I'll just leave this as is for now. We'll just agree to disagree. Our views are formed from our respective experiences we've had in our lives where we grew up. Neither is right nor wrong, they're just different.

Yes, our little battle has gone full circle. I obviously started the sidetracking in a 'round about way by stating "white liberal guilt" which is a term you haven't heard previous. Yet I was here to reach out to a former member of MLW and I brought you up to speed. That's a little bit of inclusive magic dust I'll sprinkle on your life like sugar on so many doughnuts.

You have finally agreed with me that the logo isn't offensive and doesn't need changing thus fulfilling my role in this little play. I have successfully led to the land of common sense and rational thought, welcome back.

I still find this generations apathy to be disturbing and believe it will be our downfall as a nation.

I did enjoy having you as a fellow jouster and look forward to fighting about something else. This was our first engagement and we were just circling each other in the ring and I'm sure our next fight will be good with full on hay makers and body blows...

Edited November 2, 2008 by Mr.Canada

[Kitch]

Alright, I'm starting to repeat myself so I'll just leave this as is for now. We'll just agree to disagree. Our views are formed from our respective experiences we've had in our lives where we grew up. Neither is right nor wrong, they're just different.

Yes, our little battle has gone full circle. I obviously started the sidetracking in a 'round about way by stating "white liberal guilt" which is a term you haven't heard previous. Yet I was here to reach out to a former member of MLW and I brought you up to speed. That's a little bit of inclusive magic dust I'll sprinkle on your life like sugar on so many doughnuts.

You have finally agreed with me that the logo isn't offensive and doesn't need changing thus fulfilling my role in this little play. I have successfully led to the land of common sense and rational thought, welcome back.

I still find this generations apathy to be disturbing and believe it will be our downfall as a nation.

I did enjoy having you as a fellow jouster and look forward to fighting about something else. This was our first engagement and we were just circling each other in the ring and I'm sure our next fight will be good with full on hay makers and body blows...

I'm glad that you enjoyed, I really am. And I hope that I've left you with some thoughts as you believe you have done for me.

But dude, we haven't really come full circle. I think you need to read what I've said a little more carefully. I thought I was clear, but, perhaps not. I said from the beginning that the logo was NOT offensive. Which is why I took exception to you using the word 'liberal' to describe the people who do. I'm liberal, and I don't find it offensive. I said it from the beginning. So please don't patronize me... you led me nowhere.

Apathy for social issues, by our generation... apparently, allows those with the will to do as they please. Some things that you would agree with, some that you don't, such as this logo campaign. I, for one, am not apathetic though.

But seriously... I don't have a clue what you're talking about. I will definitely trade 'hay makers' with ya in the future... but you gotta read what I'm saying bud. You can't refute somebody's claims based on who you think they are. You have to refute their ideas by showing that their ideas are wrong/bad!

[guyser]

But seriously... I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Don't worry, he doesnt either. His little rants are cute though.

[White Doors]

General outlines yes. But why would we need to know the names of generals, for example. I had to look up Montcalm and Wolfe when you mentioned them before. I knew that there was a war between England (Upper Canada) and France (Lower Canada) which England won and then... 'allowed'?... the French to have their own province in the English colony. Do I, as a citizen, need to know more than that? Maybe I do! As a high school science teacher, though, do I need to be qualified to teach history? Definitely not.

One would think as a teacher you would know more about it than my grade 8 niece, yes.

[Kitch]

One would think as a teacher you would know more about it than my grade 8 niece, yes.

I could teach you and your niece all about population genetics, physiology... many sub-topics in biology, though.

Why must so many people try to paint all teachers with the same brush? I'm a high school science teacher. I don't converse with my students about Canadian history, and if I did, I'd do so without any claims of being an authority.

You sound like some of my students who think that I fold up and store myself away in a filing cabinet in the classroom over night.