Gun Control Doesn't work...Never did, Never will!

[White Doors]

so are they rational or not rational?

You mean as happens in Detroit, right? Not to mention most violent crime is carefully premeditated, calculated and planned by somewhat rational individuals?

Furthermore, they give the perps far too much credit, namely by assuming the other party is a rational individual,

Seems to me like you are arguing out of both sides of you mouth here...

Regardless, it's pretty simple really, you don't like guns, don't buy one.

Meanwhile you let the people who would like to have a gun through CCW or otherwise, do so.

You are infringing on their freedoms and right to protect themselves if you do not.

[Canadian Blue]

No. It will increase the scarcity, and thus the price, reducing demand. I fail to see how you get to your aforementioned conclusion. How would making it illegal overall increase demand?

Because it would provide a niche market for such a product. Do you honestly think the US government prohibiting alcohol was able to reduce demand. Same goes for drugs, by making marijuana illegal it simply added another niche to be filled by organized crime.

Perhaps we would have been better off if the government didn't make laws against such vices in the first place.

First you compare Bumblef*#k, Vermont to Chicago, but comparing demand for drugs to that of firearms? While both can be viewed as an ego/confidence booster of sorts (feelings of invirility, escapism, etc), never have I heard of any physiological dependence on Glocks and such. Please explain.

I never compared Vermont to Chicago, however it should be noted that if your theory is true that more guns cause more crime, then the Vermont and New Hampshire should be rampant with criminal activity.

What I'm stating is that by prohibiting a product like drugs or firearms you are then creating another avenue for organized crime to exploit. Such an action would only further criminalize the actions of citizens who would otherwise not be criminals.

In any case, I would really like to see your thoughts on this:

QUOTE

On the whole, it seems that many CCW 'campaigners' are far too influenced by some romanticized, Hollywoodian ideal, namely that the protagonist (in this case, yourself) wins the conflict. They often assume that should there ever be such a scenario, they will always have an upper hand over the adversary, i.e. you will reach for your weapon faster, will have better, if not perfect aim, etc

Furthermore, they give the perps far too much credit, namely by assuming the other party is a rational individual, who will run away at the sight of your gun. But what if they simply meant to use theirs to intimidate you, but upon noticing you have one, they decide to shoot first. People do get emotional should a plan ever go awry.

I can't directly comment on that as you're simply being morally presumptuous. I do favour people doing basic courses before being able to own firearms, however I'm 100% against any bans. But I don't see how this belief that in order to cut crime in Toronto one must go after Ducks Unlimited has any merit to it. If you're arguing for a ban or more regulations, then you should atleast tell us how disarming law abiding citizens will reduce crime in Toronto.

So far all the current argument is made of is purely presumptuous moral superiority.

[marcinmoka]

Regardless, it's pretty simple really, you don't like guns, don't buy one.

Perhaps in your world, its a simple, black & white matter. Unfortunately, I don't live in a vacuum. I pass thousands of people each day, on the train, at the store and I, as do the majority of Canadians, feel safer that most of them are not carrying concealed weapons of any sort.

so are they rational or not rational?

Sorry. Typo. I meant "not calculated and planned", i.e, irrational behaviour.

You are infringing on their freedoms and right to protect themselves if you do not.

Why stop at CCW. Why not permit people to sling assault rifles on their shoulder should they choose, all in the name of protection.

Do you honestly trust every person you see? Do you think that a simple bureaucratic permit is enough to weed out the "just-in-case" crowd from those with malicious intent or mental instability?

----------------

Because it would provide a niche market for such a product

Umm...I think you are referring to an increase in a particular "distribution channel", and not "the market". I doubt that given the choice between a legally and illegally obtained firearm, many people would choose the latter because it provides any additional "value".

True, restricting weapons will provide incentive for organized crime to operate in the black market (low volume, high margin), but the overall market (including the black market, for those unable to attain them otherwise) will still be smaller. But that is where we must devote policing resources.

But even if guns were legal, there would still be a black market to cater to those who can't get it through other means. Unfortunately, it would also increase the supply of guns on the black market.

then the Vermont and New Hampshire should be rampant with criminal activity.

Once again, rural, sparsely populated, often homogeneous towns, with or without guns, usually have lower murder rates than elsewhere (think demographics, economics, etc).

I can't directly comment on that as you're simply being morally presumptuous.

How is having doubts about ones ability to aim, or questioning the intent of your opponent morally presumptuous?

But I don't see how this belief that in order to cut crime in Toronto one must go after Ducks Unlimited has any merit to it

Huh? Let the hunters hunt! I'm perfectly okay with hunting rifles in rural, designated settings. My question; why the hell do you need a concealed Desert Eagle or Glock 19 to hunt ducks?

Edited December 15, 2008 by marcinmoka

[Oleg Bach]

As our urban centres expanded, rural fire arms possession drifted further away from the urbanite experience...city folk who have never held or fired a gun simply don't understand that they are tools and toys (sport). All they know about fire arms is what they hear through media and though motion picture fantacy. Also feminists assume that guns are a danger to woman in during domestic strife. Well so is a fist and a butcher knife for that matter.

Urban males of the new middle class look at the idea of the gun as something they might use to defend themselves or to aggress with. Reason being is that they assume that everyone is as cowardly as they are so they believe that other men think as they do and would resort to a weapon because fist fighting is a lost and disgraced way of conflict resolution...The real problem here is that we have taught the kids that the use of the fist is prohibited and in effect the fist is banned. Seeing they are conditioned not to use the fist and they had no fathers to teach them self defense of offense with the fist - the urban discovery of the gun fit in perfectly.

[Canadian Blue]

Perhaps in your world, its a simple, black & white matter. Unfortunately, I don't live in a vacuum. I pass thousands of people each day, on the train, at the store and I, as do the majority of Canadians, feel safer that most of them are not carrying concealed weapons of any sort.

I've lived in both rural and urban areas, yet I still think that people should be allowed to have firearms if they feel they need one to protect themselves or their property.

Why stop at CCW. Why not permit people to sling assault rifles on their shoulder should they choose, all in the name of protection.

Kind of like Switzerland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Caroline...os-p1000507.jpg

Once again, education is always a better alternative than more shotty regulations.

Do you honestly trust every person you see? Do you think that a simple bureaucratic permit is enough to weed out the "just-in-case" crowd from those with malicious intent or mental instability?

One problem, by stating that law abiding citizens should not be allowed firearms, you are essentially stating that we can trust every person we see. If every person was benevolent with not a trace of maliciousness their would be no need for firearms in society.

[Oleg Bach]

We will never be able to handle or properly possess guns in this nation. Movies have programmed our young with the totally wrong attitude of what a gun is really about. There will never be respect for fire arms here as there should be because - media and those that profit from it have damaged our youth..who now though that media can not respect a gun nor human life....the horse has bolted from the barn - to late - our youth is stupified. They believe a gun is power.

[marcinmoka]

One problem, by stating that law abiding citizens should not be allowed firearms, you are essentially stating that we can trust every person we see. If every person was benevolent with not a trace of maliciousness their would be no need for firearms in society.

So if are all allowed to have guns, you will ALWAYS be on the winning end of any confrontation?

[Oleg Bach]

So if are all allowed to have guns, you will ALWAYS be on the winning end of any confrontation?

In Texas you do not give the finger to another motorist when you are road raging. There are rarely any confrontations. People here are afraid of guns because they know - that mutual respect and civility are dieing in Canada..They want to continue to disrespect each other with impunity.

[Canadian Blue]

So if are all allowed to have guns, you will ALWAYS be on the winning end of any confrontation?

I should be more clear, when buying guns I think people should have to do a basic background criminal and psychological check to ensure they can carry said firearms, as well I would like to see a mandatory course put in place. Outside of that I do not see the need for the government to put on needless regulation about whether or not I can buy a firearm based on the length of the barrel.

I never stated I would always be on the winning end of a confrontation. However in a confrontation I would hope to have at the very least a fighting chance to protect myself when defending my property.

[Oleg Bach]

I should be more clear, when buying guns I think people should have to do a basic background criminal and psychological check to ensure they can carry said firearms, as well I would like to see a mandatory course put in place. Outside of that I do not see the need for the government to put on needless regulation about whether or not I can buy a firearm based on the length of the barrel.

I never stated I would always be on the winning end of a confrontation. However in a confrontation I would hope to have at the very least a fighting chance to protect myself when defending my property.

Key phrase "defending property" - looks like the old colonial British Property Laws come into play - what you are saying is that it would be nice to have a gun if some poor person attempted to take your stuff. Protecting yourself is acceptable - protecting stuff by possibly shooting the thief is a very lofty and privlegded postion to take. The spirit of this statement shows that if provoked by a thief...some will kill needlessly....Property means nothing in comparison to human life. Maybe this debate is not so much about the right to bare arms but the right to use what ever force is neccesary to defend and protect wealth. It makes folks nervous in some cities when the poor have guns and the rich don't - If crimminals continue to import more fire armes that are dispersed to the have nots - then the haves should be allowed to have them also - If the authorities get rid of street guns--- then the problem goes away. Who has the will to do that? I have notice when a young man is killed from Rosedale..they get very distressed. It is only when violence effects our leaders will they act...I guess you have to wait for things to get worse before they get better.

[moderateamericain]

I have a Rhodesian Ridgeback shes about as scary as a two year old. It may look intimidating but its not. Speaking only for the United States and Only for Detroit. Conceal weapons have prevented crime here. A while back, there was a string of Car Jacks. The gangster element of Detroit decided armed robbery of peoples cars was the way to go. After about a month of putting up with this people started packing in there cars. After about the next two would be car jackers were shot and killed. That particular crime almost completely stopped. Not only is Gun control against the constitution of the United States it would turn the criminal element in Detroit wild and loose on the city. I 100 percent gurantee it

[Oleg Bach]

I have a Rhodesian Ridgeback shes about as scary as a two year old. It may look intimidating but its not. Speaking only for the United States and Only for Detroit. Conceal weapons have prevented crime here. A while back, there was a string of Car Jacks. The gangster element of Detroit decided armed robbery of peoples cars was the way to go. After about a month of putting up with this people started packing in there cars. After about the next two would be car jackers were shot and killed. That particular crime almost completely stopped. Not only is Gun control against the constitution of the United States it would turn the criminal element in Detroit wild and loose on the city. I 100 percent gurantee it

What a mess - so this is now normal? I wonder what the weather is like at the north pole? Might set up a cabin on top of the world while you guys shoot it out.

[guyser]

United States it would turn the criminal element in Detroit wild and loose on the city. I 100 percent gurantee it

What a sad state of affairs Detroit has become. Sad to see such beauty go to waste.

But in refereence to your post, isnt that happening already from the (now jailed) Mayor on down? I see the Wings dont sell out anymore, and who can blame people for not wanting to venture there?

Sad truly sad, and only to get worse.

[guyser]

There is actually a town in Georgia where it is Mandatory to own a gun....and the crime rate there is near zero! Proof Gun control does not work actually just the opposite!

Except it is nowhere near zero and it isnt mandatory, one can opt out for various reasons.

But have you heard of a place called Canada? why the whole country doesnt mandate a weapon in each house, and the crime rate (especially rape/murder/assault) are alllower than Kennesaw Georgia.

I wonder what that means?

[marcinmoka]

In Texas you do not give the finger to another motorist when you are road raging. There are rarely any confrontations. People here are afraid of guns because they know - that mutual respect and civility are dieing in Canada..They want to continue to disrespect each other with impunity.

Oleg, as usual, what the heck are you talking about? Dallas and Houston also have 8 x the murder rate of Toronto. I'd rather someone flip me the bird than put a bullet through my head.

P.S. No offence, but do you write your posts in another language? I get the feeling you try to put some quasi poetic response of yours through Babelfish, and leave us to sort through the mess.

Edited December 15, 2008 by marcinmoka

[Mr.Canada]

I'm not advocating the indiscriminate buying and selling of firearms here. That's totally irresponsible, I'm talking about fully regulated CCW. Safety use, storage and care of firearms would need to be mandated. As well as background, criminal checks and the like.

I have guns and bows in my house, my wife hates them but she understands my use of them and the severe responsibility and respect I have for them or I would not have them, period. If I was being irresponsible then I shouldn't be allowed to have them, granted but if I'm a law abiding citizen why shouldn't be allowed to have them on my person in certain places?

I'm sure many here have this picture of me as some wild redneck who has guns lying around some trailer park with a couple dogs and a pick up. LOL, I assure you all if you saw me, you'd never believe that I post here under this name. I'm just a regular joe on the street you wouldn't look twice at, unless you're female but that'[s another thread, haha.

[moderateamericain]

What a sad state of affairs Detroit has become. Sad to see such beauty go to waste.

But in refereence to your post, isnt that happening already from the (now jailed) Mayor on down? I see the Wings dont sell out anymore, and who can blame people for not wanting to venture there?

Sad truly sad, and only to get worse.

Actually the wings can pack in about 19,000 with the suites, they still are getting around 14 to 18 thousand per game.

[White Doors]

Perhaps in your world, its a simple, black & white matter. Unfortunately, I don't live in a vacuum. I pass thousands of people each day, on the train, at the store and I, as do the majority of Canadians, feel safer that most of them are not carrying concealed weapons of any sort.

So you are basing your opinion on your own personal fear instead of facts?

As I suspected.

This is like trying to talk to a person who believes the earth is 6000 years old.

[marcinmoka]

So you are basing your opinion on your own personal fear instead of facts?

As I suspected.

This is like trying to talk to a person who believes the earth is 6000 years old.

Yes. Exactly the same thing. And locking my doors when I leave the house is also identical to ones belief in religious mythology. Did you come up with that analogy yourself? Don't strain yourself now.

[marcinmoka]

If I was being irresponsible then I shouldn't be allowed to have them, granted but if I'm a law abiding citizen why shouldn't be allowed to have them on my person in certain places?

One may be responsible at the time of issue, but what guarantee of future stability? What if one succumbs to mental illness, or a traumatic event down the line? Humans are emotional beings.

[AngusThermopyle]

What if one succumbs to mental illness, or a traumatic event down the line? Humans are emotional beings.

Very true, we should ban drivers licenses as well.

[White Doors]

Very true, we should ban drivers licenses as well.

drivers are irrational after all!

[Canadian Blue]

Dallas and Houston also have 8 x the murder rate of Toronto. I'd rather someone flip me the bird than put a bullet through my head.

How many incidents happen like that in the Dallas and Houston area? They would likely happen with or without a ban on guns, and quite frankly your entire argument thus far is based on emotions and not much else.

[marcinmoka]

Very true, we should ban drivers licenses as well.

I know someone would say this. But seriously, think about that for a second. Cars have one purpose, transport. They ultimately serve a far great purpose in society.

Guns were also conceived for only one purpose; an efficient means of killing. Beyond that....???

How many incidents happen like that in the Dallas and Houston area?

I don't know. Do you? My statement was response to Oleg's "statement".

They would likely happen with or without a ban on guns,

Really? Why so?

and quite frankly your entire argument thus far is based on emotions and not much else.

Explain please. And while your at it, explain how your fear of threats lurking everywhere and your desire to play armed avenger are not "based on emotions"?

[guyser]

I know someone would say this. But seriously, think about that for a second. Cars have one purpose, transport. They ultimately serve a far great purpose in society.

Not to mention for sport ie racing. Just like cars, guns are used for sporting purposes.

Cars gave us tanks too.

Guns were also conceived for only one purpose; an efficient means of killing. Beyond that....???

Knives were conceived for one purpose , slicing things, be it a throat a leg or tree branch.

Guns were conceived for survival by allowing one to shoot game thus ensuring ones family ate meat.

Explain please. And while your at it, explain how your fear of threats lurking everywhere and your desire to play armed avenger are not "based on emotions"?

A gun never killed anyone. Someone somewhere had to pull the trigger.

If someone is , as you put it, "one succumbs to mental illness, or a traumatic event down the line?, the persons doctor should report it to the authorities in the same way as a Dr would for someone of failing eyesight or having seizures.

The emotional aspect of your argument is you just dont like guns. Thats fine, no one can make you like them, but the truth is we have thousands if not millions of guns in this country and we have a very low murder rate. Those that enjoy sport shooting, hunting and the like should not be lumped with criminal use of guns.