NEW LIBERAL AD BLASTS HARPER & CLARIFIES GREEN SHIFT

[Shakeyhands]

I happen to live just west of Niagara Falls...

My apologies Bill, I saw the constant refrain and my fingers took over.

[cybercoma]

the Ass Backwards repressive social conservative regime of Harper ANY day

I'd like to hear some examples of Stephen Harper's social conservatism in action. Personally, I agree with Conservative policies, but my hanging point is social conservatism. But, I haven't seen the CPC push a socially conservative agenda on Canadians and it's probably because the electorate won't stand for it. We're a socially progressive society, compared to the United States anyway and it would be political suicide for Harper to go down that road even if he has a majority government. Since you feel Harper is running a "social conservative regime," I'd be very interested in hearing some examples of this social conservatism because that would certainly swing my vote away from the CPC.

[M.Dancer]

I'd like to hear some examples of Stephen Harper's social conservatism in action. Personally, I agree with Conservative policies, but my hanging point is social conservatism. But, I haven't seen the CPC push a socially conservative agenda on Canadians and it's probably because the electorate won't stand for it. We're a socially progressive society, compared to the United States anyway and it would be political suicide for Harper to go down that road even if he has a majority government. Since you feel Harper is running a "social conservative regime," I'd be very interested in hearing some examples of this social conservatism because that would certainly swing my vote away from the CPC.

CUE MARIJUANA LEGALIZATION RANT IN 5, 4 3.....

[eyeball]

I'd like to hear some examples of Stephen Harper's social conservatism in action. Personally, I agree with Conservative policies, but my hanging point is social conservatism. But, I haven't seen the CPC push a socially conservative agenda on Canadians and it's probably because the electorate won't stand for it. We're a socially progressive society, compared to the United States anyway and it would be political suicide for Harper to go down that road even if he has a majority government. Since you feel Harper is running a "social conservative regime," I'd be very interested in hearing some examples of this social conservatism because that would certainly swing my vote away from the CPC.

I think what will happen is that Harper will leave a lot of the social conservatism to the grass roots. In my community a small vocal group of Christian drug warriors are, with RCMP guidance, forming neighbourhood watch committees that will profile so-called drug houses and pressure municiple governments to force dealers and drug users out of the community. This will involve police distributing intimidating letters to neighbourhoods with suspect houses and these watch committees pressuring the municipality to make and enforce by-laws that deal with uncut lawns, garbage, too many cars parked out front, funny smells and noises - anything in other words that apparently fit their profile of a suspect.

I've seen the same people pressure municiple government to use its by-laws to prevent mental health and addictions facilities in our town and I've seen the Conservatives/Harper election signs on their front lawns.

Recall the recent poll on Canada's contemptuous and near medieval attitudes towards mental-illness - Conservative vindictiveness towards addiction flows from the very same wellspring. I see this vindictiveness in the campaign literature the Conservatives are sending me and I see it in the petitions and letters to the editors from the people this literature is aimed at. I'm quite certain if you live in a small rural area you won't have to look very far to see what's coming. A crankier more polarized community that your either with or against. Social conservatives will attempt to morally cleanse the land from the bottom up while Harper feeds these trolls with an endless diet of fear, loathing and promises of cracking-down and getting tough.

The only result will be a crankier more polarized country...with all or even more of the same social vices it has right now.

Edited September 17, 2008 by eyeball

[M.Dancer]

I think what will happen is that Harper will leave a lot of the social conservatism to the grass roots. In my community a small vocal group of Christian drug warriors are, with RCMP guidance, forming neighbourhood watch committees that will profile so-called drug houses and pressure municiple governments to force dealers and drug users out of the community. This will involve police distributing intimidating letters to neighbourhoods with suspect houses and these watch committees pressuring the municipality to make and enforce by-laws that deal with uncut lawns, garbage, too many cars parked out front, funny smells and noises - anything in other words that apparently fit their profile of a suspect.

I've seen the same people pressure municiple government to use its by-laws to prevent mental health and addictions facilities in our town and I've seen the Conservatives/Harper election signs on their front lawns.

Recall the recent poll on Canada's contemptuous nearly medieval attitudes towards mental-illness - Conservative vindictiveness towards addiction flows from the very same wellspring. I see this vindictiveness in the campaign literature the Conservatives are sending me and I see it in the petitions and letters to the editors from the people this literature is aimed at. I'm quite certain if you live in a small rural area you won't have to look very far to see what's coming. A crankier more polarized community that your either with or against. Social conservatives will attempt to morally cleanse the land from the bottom up while Harper feeds these trolls with an endless diet of fear, loathing and promises of cracking-down and getting tough.

The only result will be a crankier more polarized country...with all or even more of the same social vices it has right now.

Cybercoma asked for examples of social conservative policies already in place, not your paranoid daydreams.

[eyeball]

My thoughts on what might happen are based on what's actually happening on the ground right now right here.

Police are in fact meeting with and coaching the neighbourhood snitch committees I mentioned - the very same people that also stopped mental health and addiction facilities from being established. They care little if anything for real people that need real help and they are the type of people Harper's conservatives are reaching out to the most.

Real wholesome community minded folks, probably just like you, except they hate hashish.

[M.Dancer]

My thoughts on what might happen are based on what's actually happening on the ground right now right here.

Police are in fact meeting with and coaching the neighbourhood snitch committees I mentioned - the very same people that also stopped mental health and addiction facilities from being established. They care little if anything for real people that need real help and they are the type of people Harper's conservatives are reaching out to the most.

Real wholesome community minded folks, probably just like you, except they hate hashish.

Neighbourhood watch is a local inititive, yes...sort of like what you wish of corporate charters?

Mental health facilities I believe are provincial, are they not?

Thanks for coming.

[Canadian Blue]

My thoughts on what might happen are based on what's actually happening on the ground right now right here.

Police are in fact meeting with and coaching the neighbourhood snitch committees I mentioned - the very same people that also stopped mental health and addiction facilities from being established. They care little if anything for real people that need real help and they are the type of people Harper's conservatives are reaching out to the most.

As compared to the type of people whom you are reaching out to which seem to include James Roszko.

However unlike you I can recognize the idiocy of the above statement. You live in a simple minded world where anyone who doesn't vote Green Party is some evil individualist just hoping for an orgy of violence.

[cybercoma]

Thank you, Dancer, for summing up what I would've said.

I'd honestly like to hear a response from someone who is against the Conservative Party. I'm not committed to voting for them and if anyone can show me a social conservative agenda from the CPC, I'd be more than happy to vote for another party.

[myata]

I don't care about recruiting anybody into any camps, but for the sake of discussion, here's couple of examples:

#1 Crime agenda.

Conservatives are trying to play "tough on crime" agenda. While actual crime rates are at 30-40 year low. The existing problem areas are mostly related to gangs and associated crime (guns, drugs, etc). These are problmes that require persistent ongoing work in all relevant levels ie social policies, to keep disadvantaged youth out of gangs; gun control, to keep guns out of their hands; police work, to monitor gang activity and dismantle dangerous groups. Let's see where Conservatives stand on this problem, for real, ie based on their acts:

- social policies: I can only think of some tax credits, plus $100/month under 6. Even real progress with childcare spaces would have made impact here; but I don't think it's happening.

- gun control: Harper's not interested. And you can tell when he's not interested: it falls dead. Coroner's calling to prohibit assault guns; Toronto mayor, Ontario PM call to ban handguns, no reaction. With that come well known Conservative attitudes toward registration of guns, and restrictions on their imports.

- policing: I recall promises made to put more police on streets. Not sure what happened to those. But certainly, taking on gangs would require much more than just more boots on the street. That could be specialized anti-gang units, sharing information across services and regions, and other such measures. I haven't heard anything, zilch, from Conservatives on this agenda.

So by far most of the Conservative puff on crime seems to be going into "get tough" legislation. Is it an efficient policy? By ignoring most important elements of crime control, no. Is it ideological? Almost entirely. Is it social conservative? Absolutely. Tough penalties, loose guns - look no further than south of the border for a reality check.

#2 Death penalty

At my local candidates debate, I'll ask all candidates to answer multiple point question on death penalty:

- my party denies it completely and utterly;

- my party supports it in some circumstances;

- my party supports its introduction in Canada in the foreseable future.

Harper's acts indicate that his (Conservatives) position is at least #2. Another link to social conservatism.

[OddSox]

#1 Crime agenda.

Conservatives are trying to play "tough on crime" agenda. While actual crime rates are at 30-40 year low. The existing problem areas are mostly related to gangs and associated crime (guns, drugs, etc). These are problmes that require persistent ongoing work in all relevant levels ie social policies, to keep disadvantaged youth out of gangs; gun control, to keep guns out of their hands; police work, to monitor gang activity and dismantle dangerous groups. Let's see where Conservatives stand on this problem, for real, ie based on their acts:

40 year low? I don't think so.

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/G...313646-sun.html

[eyeball]

Neighbourhood watch is a local inititive, yes...sort of like what you wish of corporate charters?

I didn't say keeping an eye out for criminals is a bad idea, but what constitutes a crime, smoking a bowl of hash from time to time?

Mental health facilities I believe are provincial, are they not?

That's right, providing mental health facilities are a provincial responsibility. The feds however are responsible for ensuring that health standards are adequate and equal across Canada. More to the point the federal government is responsible for ensuring Canadian's rights to mental health care and treatment are upheld. My riding's Conservative incumbent (James Lunney) makes it pretty clear he thinks addicts don't have rights.

A recent study of Canadian attitudes towards mental illness reveal almost half of us deny it exists in our families and communities and that most people are responsible for their condition and often fake it. A lack of compassion, stigma and especially discrimination were cited by The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology in the document OUT OF THE SHADOWS AT LAST; Transforming Mental Health, Mental Illness and Addiction Services in Canada.

Above all else this document calls for education and awareness to improve public attitudes towards mental illness and addiction. That's because addiction and mental illness are probably two of the least mutually exclusive things going. They are peas from the same pod. To treat one you almost always have to treat the other and a lack of facilities to treat one condition is obviously going to impact the ability to treat the other. By the same token, discrimination for one is going to translate into discrimination for the other. I think there's good reason to believe this is not a coincidence especially when I see Conservative supporters promoting discrimination against the mentally ill in my community and Conservative MPs promoting discrimination against addicts everywhere else.

Thanks for coming

You're welcome.

Edited September 19, 2008 by eyeball

[M.Dancer]

I didn't say keeping an eye out for criminals is a bad idea, but what constitutes a crime, smoking a bowl of hash from time to time?

That's right, providing mental health facilities are a provincial responsibility. The feds however are responsible for ensuring that health standards are adequate and equal across Canada. More to the point the federal government is responsible for ensuring Canadian's rights to mental health care and treatment are upheld. My riding's Conservative incumbent (James Lunney) makes it pretty clear he thinks addicts don't have rights.

IRRELEVANT PASSAGEs DELETED

I see Conservative supporters promoting discrimination against the mentally ill in my community and Conservative MPs promoting discrimination against addicts everywhere else.

You're welcome.

I don't think addicts should be discriminated against. They should have access to the same correctional facilities as any other criminally deviant....

Yet no examples of social conservative policies...no examples no surprise.

[eyeball]

I don't think addicts should be discriminated against. They should have access to the same correctional facilities as any other criminally deviant....

Yet no examples of social conservative policies...no examples no surprise.

Prevent the decriminalization of marijuana.

Source

They want to criminalize you even further Morris. You quite likely have neighbours sniffing around your neighbourhood watching out for deviants like you right now. Conservative MPs are more than willing to accomodate their social attitudes if it'll help get them elected.

[myata]

40 year low? I don't think so.

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/G...313646-sun.html

Statements like "lowest in 25 - 30 years etc" refer to overall crime rate. E.g.

2006 (National): 7518 (CBC: crime lowest in 25 years

1979 (National): 7666 (Stats Canada: Crime Rates).

2006-1979 ~ 30 year low.

The report does highlight the areas of increase in crime. This is, not surprisingly, violent youth crime. Very likely, in the large extent, gang related.

Fighting gang crimes must be a long persistent process on all fronts: social fabric of communities; police work to monitor gang activity and dismantle dangerous gangs; gun control. It won't be solved by bang on "get tough" slogans. Conservative position is an ideological scaretactic sales pitch that won't result in a long term reduction of violent crime. Strong and consistent gun control, social measures associated with ongoing persuit and dismantling of violent gangs, will. If "get tough" could ever bring low crime rates, our southbound neighbour would have been world champion. And as it stands it is, but in the other, opposite, way.

[Bryan]

40 year low? I don't think so.

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/G...313646-sun.html

40 year low, no, but it's definitely in sharp decline.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/080717/d080717b.htm

Edited September 20, 2008 by Bryan