Bryden Confirms Worst Fears About Martin

[Michael Hardner]

Goldie:

How pathetic that Mr. Harper has to state that he was born in Ontario to validate his leadership bid.

Further to this, Stockwell Day did the same thing as I remember. It didn't help him much as I recall.

Mr. Harper is doing all the right things to garner respect in Ontario. He's taking the high road, trying to keep social conservatives from making extreme comments, and focussing on the shortcomings of the sitting government as he's supposed to do (or was) as opposition leader.

As a result, he's made great strides. As the leader of a party that only distinguished itself in the public mind as having a penchant for gaffes, Harper managed things well enough that they are now surging in the polls. None of this would have been possible without his hard work.

How many seats will he have to win in Ontario before you drop this paranoid belief that Ontarians are anti-west ?

[KrustyKidd]

MH

This makes me wonder what you meant when you criticized the Libs for going against the will of the people.

True Michael, there is nothing wrong with going against the will of the people from tme to time in order to get something done that will benifit them. However, the end result must have an honorable purpose that seves the people. I see no evidence of this in all the money wasting scams and rip offs that are happening. Are you going to tell me that the Liberals are privy to some information that makes a billion unaccounted for dollars with HRDC a smart move? How about the two billion that the gun registry burns, is there a reason that they have been unable to explain to us as to why it makes sense?

No. They just throw the money away out of arrogance.

[Michael Hardner]

Are you going to tell me that the Liberals are privy to some information that makes a billion unaccounted for dollars with HRDC a smart move? How about the two billion that the gun registry burns, is there a reason that they have been unable to explain to us as to why it makes sense?

No. They just throw the money away out of arrogance.

I agree. I just had an issue with the 'will of the people' aspect. I think the Liberals governed by polls.

This mismanagement wasn't something that they were able to overcome or poll-manage, just cover up. But even that has come to an end...

[Goldie]

Michael Hardner,

Let me just say that I never said Ontario only votes for Ontarians so pointing out that Ontario hasn't had a home grown Prime Minister doesn't disprove an anti-west bias.

The wests rejection of Kim Campbell and John Turner again doesn't prove anything but that the west votes in a consistent manner. Screwed by Mulroney, punish his successor. Screwed by Trudeau, Don't vote for Turner or his other minister as in, Jean Cretien. That only left the NDP, sorry the west is too conservative so hello Reform.

Paul Martin had a chance in the west because he mostly showed a dislike for Cretien. He wasn't connected to any previous, screw the west or central Canadian favourtism. That has changed this week.

I would hope the Conservatives under Harper would win more than the 26 seats Eves did in the provincial election. I would hope that Harper wins more than the 43 seats Turner did in 1988. Ah, but we have Ontarians leading the other parties so I would be happy with 30 seats in '04 for the Harper Conservatives. Any less and your bigotry will dangle for all to see.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael Hardner,

Let me just say that I never said Ontario only votes for Ontarians so pointing out that Ontario hasn't had a home grown Prime Minister doesn't disprove an anti-west bias.

The wests rejection of Kim Campbell and John Turner again doesn't prove anything but that the west votes in a consistent manner. Screwed by Mulroney, punish his successor. Screwed by Trudeau, Don't vote for Turner or his other minister as in, Jean Cretien. That only left the NDP, sorry the west is too conservative so hello Reform.

As an aside, the west invented the NDP.

Paul Martin had a chance in the west because he mostly showed a dislike for Cretien. He wasn't connected to any previous, screw the west or central Canadian favourtism. That has changed this week.

I don't know about that. I think he may well have been screwed by Chretien. It would be kind of strange to punish Paul Martin - Chretien's adversary - for the previous regime's errors.

I would hope the Conservatives under Harper would win more than the 26 seats Eves did in the provincial election. I would hope that Harper wins more than the 43 seats Turner did in 1988. Ah, but we have Ontarians leading the other parties so I would be happy with 30 seats in '04 for the Harper Conservatives. Any less and your bigotry will dangle for all to see.

Paul Martin isn't an Ontarian, is he ? I believe he's from Quebec. Maybe the pro-Ontario bias will give Layton a landslide.

30 seats, huh. Ok. We'll see how it goes. I think Harper can reach that goal.

[Goldie]

Let me be perfectly clear, I think Paul Martin is a perfect candidate for the Canadian system. Born in Windsor, lives in Quebec, Hell, even his name is the perfect Anglo\Franco broad marketing appeal. I think Visa used Paul Martin on sample cards in advertisements to a address the language sensibilities in Canada. They have since dropped it in favour of a gender neutral name to appeal to gender sensibilities.

Paul is a conservative and fine manager of business and could have had large support in the west. I did predict a super majority for him way back in October. I also suggested the end of the Alliance and or the PC party and not because of a merger, but due to irrelevance. I saw an NDP official opposition and a shattered Bloq.

I remember Jean Cretien suggested Paul Martin was a shooting star, like Kim Campbell. At the time I thought wow, for a guy that takes bullets for Liberals and constructs cones of silence for anything controversial, this was harsh. I guess the little guy gets the last laugh.

[August1991]

Am I missing something here?

You guys are going on blah, blah about the anti-West bias of Ontario voters blah, blah right wing yahoos blah, blah...

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we are witnessing a fascinating meltdown of Kim Campbell, Stockwell Day, John Turner proportions. Many, many people in the East have decided that they don't like Paul Martin. Their opinion is not going to change.

Heck, in my ultra-Liberal riding in Quebec people think Paul Martin is a shady huckster. Why? Not because he does it. But because he has the gall to pretend that he doesn't. "Il nous prend pour les caves." Where is the Latin wink?

In Quebec, they are going to vote BQ. I don't know what these people in Ontario will do. One constant of Ontario voters is that a large group just want everyone to get along (meaning get along with Quebec). They will vote for the perceived "national" party. Now, what do they do when there isn't one?

Chretien made it look so easy. It's not. Paul Martin is proof.

And underneath it all, after 10 years or so of Clinton and Chretien, Canadians never had it so good. The Blair/Clinton middle left works better than the Bush phoney right.

[August1991]

Goldie, I wrote my reply and then later saw your post. (I"m new and slow to this type of discussion.) I agree with your comment and was boringly making the same point.

A minor addition: You describe Paul Martin as a good businessman. At the risk of sounding anti-Martin (I'm not), Paul Desmarais "gave" Paul Martin his CSL business. For Martin, it was a no lose situation. Desmarais, wealthy enough by previous Liberal governments (Pearson but in particular Trudeau) knew where to invest. (Chretien's daughter, I believe, is married to Desmarais's son. Well, you know, Nixon's daughter married Eisenhower's grandson. Young people hang out and the next thing is...)

Another: I too believed that Martin would be the successful anglophone in the Liberal alternance. But think. King and Pearson (sort of) were the past successful ones. Do the math.

[Michael Hardner]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we are witnessing a fascinating meltdown of Kim Campbell, Stockwell Day, John Turner proportions. Many, many people in the East have decided that they don't like Paul Martin. Their opinion is not going to change.

This isn't a done deal. The election could easily happen in the fall and a lot could happen between now and then. Opinions do change, as evidenced by PM's big drop.

[August1991]

Agreed, politics is strange, maybe I'm wrong and Canada is civilized weird. But honest, do Ontarians like this guy? (Bum pat? Should he have gone skiing?)

More critical, so-so federalist Liberal Quebecers don't want a phoney right-wing Bush. They certainly don't want a disloyal sob.

Recently, people were upset about rising house prices in Montreal. Do you know what the latest stories are?

[August1991]

Sorry, I'll add this. Watch carefully and trust Jean Charest's take on this story. It really matters. (Do you know what Landry is saying now?)

(BTW, for many in the Liberal crowd and Chretien, the cards were placed like in poker - partisan. For Trudeau, it was intellectual. But for Charest, it's family. He's Canadian beyond Elliot.)

(Again. Maybe I'm wrong. Watch and listen. Do you remember 1976 and the language of air traffic? Preston Manning is amongst the few Westerners that can appreciate this drama.)

[Goldie]

Sorry August1991 I don't know what the hell your trying to say. Like I'm curious what Jean Charest and Landry have to say so please fill in the blanks.

I think Harper just screwd up because he said the rest of Canada views this as a Quebec scandal. Doesn't matter what the context was, the soundbite may very well be played over and over on the CBC. Like when Albonzky (or whatever) asked what Quebec ministers knew something then cut to the PM scolding her over Quebec bashing. This is maddening, who the hell is minding these people.

Belinda was aked why she is being so polite in attacking Paul Martin. PLEASE SEE CONSPIRACY THEORY.

If you wanted to destroy the right wing in Canada how would one go about doing just that.

First, who would want to do that? Answer, Jean Cretien and Paul Martin.

Next, who would you ask for advice on how to do that. Well if your Jean Cretien why not ask Bill Clinton. You know your golfing and things and thoughts of grandeur start to penetrate your tedium.

So Clinton says why don't you first convince your enemies to join together so you only have one party to focus on destruction. I know you can hear Jean saying," but da split elps us Liberals". Bill replies, "Ya ya, ear me out you hoser. First you get them to join then you take over the damn party.

There is no way to get them join together, Jean protests. Bill says, do you know Belinda? Jean says No way, look at me, and I'm in my late 50's. Ok I'll handle that, replies Bill.

Jean says I'll need to have a consevative leader in the liberal party to draw away votes from this new entity. Bill says that is perfect. So Jean and Paul stage a fight to remove him from cabinet thus helping his cause. This is important because remember the Liberal convention where Jean endorsed Paul, "You have my support".

Belinda supports everybody financially, even David Orchard and Paul Martin. Why ? Because she needs to ensure she has the ear of potential leaders to assist in a merger and still show support to her fellow operatives.

Paul Martins' response to Belinda entering the leadership race "she is a very smart person and I'm sure she'll do well. Stephen Harpers' was, "I can't write a check for my campaign". This suggests Paul was more comforting to Belinda and was an expected occurance.

The blueprint already exists for such an occurance. I can imagine the plotting, "we need another Kim Cambell". Given the sponsorship scandal they would relish such a person. Hello Belinda! The Government knew this was coming long ago.

Belinda, Jean Cretien, Bill Clinton, Paul Martin, are a chain of events worthy of the X-files. Damn I miss Mulder and Scully.

Anyway, I wonder if some of that money will comeback to the Canadian public and that they will forever restrain themselves from voting Liberal.

[August1991]

Goldie, I'm saying that Paul Martin has bungled big time. He has managed to insult many federalist Quebecers. As a result, many will vote BQ.

With lousy Liberal poll results, many Ontario voters feel uncomfortable and don't know who is the "national" party. They will park their choice with the NDP until they decide. (Moreover, I suspect Paul Martin seems "wrong" to Ontario voters. To them, he's a bad Mulroney or Turner.)

We are all watching a Canadian drama. I don't know what the end conclusion will be. Let's see how this story unfolds.

[i lived in Edmonton for some time. I liked westerners and IMO, I thought many westerners would prefer to live in a straightforward world of honesty. The world, and Canada, is not such. IMO, Preston Manning seems to understand the wonderful drama of Canada.]

[maplesyrup]

I think:

Paul Martin was born in the Windsor, ON area, and represents a Quebec riding.

Jack Layton was born in Quebec and is running for an Ontario riding.

----------------------------

With latest opinion polls showing the NDP going from 8% to 21% in the polls since Layton took over as leader, I don't think Jack Layton being out of the House of Commons is hurting the NDP, do you?

[udawg]

I wouldn't have predicted this 2 weeks ago, but things change Hypothetically:

Step 1: Clement wins leadership of CPC. He now has party funding to raise his profile, so he does just that, and people take notice. The election is delayed (for obvious reasons), and he gets the necessary time to form policy and get recognition.

Step 2: The conservatives win the election. Majority, even, and if not, they form a coalition with the NDP. (Don't believe it? Layton may not be a radical conservative, but he leans in that direction.)

Step 3: After, say, 3 years, during which the Liberals weed out the deadweight and corruption, no longer needing to be concerned with matters of state, an election is held. (Martin still leader, is my prediction)

Step 4: Now we have a real fight on our hands, because depending on how the CPC does as government, we might actually have two legitimate possibilities for the first time in probably 20 years. Canadians once again have control of their own political fate.

Call me an idealist, but I think it might happen.