Bryden Confirms Worst Fears About Martin

[maplesyrup]

Well MP John Bryden who quit the Liberal Party today confirms Canadians' worst fears about PM Paul Martin, doesn't he?

[maplesyrup]

Don't worry, Big business will come in to try and rescue Martin.

Their answer will probably be former Premier Frank McKenna which is another big mistake.

http://www.bourque.org/

CAPITAL UPHEAVAL: WHO WILL LEAD POST-MARTIN LIBS ?

SHOCKER: LIBS PONDER SUCCESSION

The governing Liberal Party is nothing, if not pragmatic. Its one and only reason for existence is to govern. Period. Leaders, as a recent succession of leaders have sadly found out along the way, come second ... unless they are potential winners at the ballot box. Bourque can reveal that, as the Party continues to free-fall (internal party numbers now show the Libs at 30%), a growing number of disgruntled Liberals, already unhappy with their leader for a variety of reasons (Chretien/Copps/Rock supporters, still-on-backbench Martinites, sponsorship-shocked trench warriors, ordinary members disgusted by the $1/6 Billion CSL scandal, etc), have begun pondering the imponderable: if not Martin, then who to lead the party into the next election ? The basic issue is this: Martin is a one-trick pony, integrity. If he loses that, he loses the party. A critical mass is forming around the shocking notion that the incumbent leader is a lame duck who will have to go before the next election. Developing ...

[SirRiff]

i got no sympathy for the Liberals. my philosophy is that by being part of the party, you bear part of the blame.

my concern is with the absolute lack of alternatives to the liberals. i mean, in a really strong democracy, there should be another party there in a second that would take over. yet the liberals had 12 years of dominating rule, and i cant imagine the PCs actually winning a majority due to this. it would take alot more droping in the polls.

but man, this is a perfect opportunity for the conservatives

sirriff

[udawg]

Saw an online poll at the Global television site... If the election were held today, who would you vote for?

Obviously not a scientific poll, but I found the results a little shocking nonetheless. Last I checked the results, the Liberals were at a staggering ... 16.5%. The NDP, yes, the federal NDP, had more, at 25.4%. And what about those Conservatives? 50.7% of respondants voted Conservative if the election was today.

Even taking into account the conservative slant of the Global/National Post media group, and likely visitors to the site, I still find it incredible that the Liberals have dropped so far in one day.

How big is this?

[maplesyrup]

It's huge.

So big they may have to dunp Martin. He's turning out to be a nightmare for the Libs. We'll see.

Internal Liberal polling today is even showing worse figures than yesterday down to 30%.

[udawg]

If they dump Martin, who will they pick up? They can try all they like to get rid of the apparent insiders of this scandal, but this one runs deep. The Liberals may end up with a fresher face as leader than the Conservatives.

[maplesyrup]

They will try and go with maybe Frank McKenna which will be another big mistake for the Liberals. They haven't really gotten the message yet. They have been fat cats for so long feeding at the trough.

Basically what has happened is that big business controls our Canadian government through Martin. Canadians may get angry enough to take it back.

That's my hunch, eh?

[udawg]

Can it happen this election? Or does big business still have enough influence in Ontario and maybe Quebec to eke out a majority?

Then factor in the fractured nature of the new Conservatives. The Liberals have had one defection away from them. How many have the CPC had? And Ontario won't vote for Harper, and there's no guarantee the West will vote for Clemente, and there's no guarantee that anyone will vote for Belinda.

Can the Conservatives mount a strong enough opposition to the big money?

[Goldie]

Sir Riff

So what the hell does Stephen Harper have to do to show he is worthy enough to have have the support of Ontario. If Dalton can get elected Premier I'm lead to believe is doesn't take much.

The Federal Liberals steal 100 Million $ and they sit at 41%. What the hell is Ontario so affraid of that they would rather have that much stolen from them than vote for the Conservatives.

Really now, I'll assume the worst from an Ontarian perspective and suppose Stephen Harper becomes the leader of the Conservatives. Do people in Toronto really think that he would ban all abortions and jail homosexuals and hand out handguns in the public library? Is this a likely scenario?

Maybe it is not the social concerns, maybe it is economic? Perhaps the conservatives would hand our economy over to the US like those bastards in Mulroneys government did with the trade agreements and introduce more taxes. Wait just a second, buddy! Canada has slipped in all economic indexes under Paul Martins watch and a corrupt government won't help matters.

Look, I can understand Atlantic Canada and Quebec voting for the highest bidder via the PC's and Liberals, even the Praries can be forgiven for supporting these former and current parasites as they hope to benefit or at least create a simbiotic orgy. I don't get Ontario's pathetic blind faith in Paul Martin. It is time, Ontario, to start leading this nation towards a populist agenda where Canadians don't steal from Canadians.

Let me make one final observation, if Ontario doesn't live up to its role in this Canadian confederation to punish those that transgress and abuse the public purse and choose to do nothing then they will see this country spiral into the void failed idealology.

Ontario exists in Canada as the US exists in the world, in that a failure by the US affects the globe, A failure by Ontario lets all of Canada feel the pain. An Ontario that fails to lead within this country will be replaced in prominance by another. Anybody care to guess who might carry the new tourch in Confederation if Ontario fails? That is correct! Alberta.

[udawg]

Goldie, you ask the same questions my father has been asking for years. It was before the 97 election that he said something to the effect of, Ontario better not vote Liberal, or this country's in trouble.

Said the same thing, only more vehemently, and with more despair, 3 years later in 2000.

And he's saying it again. Ontario continues to vote Liberal federally, and you and him both can't understand why. I doubt anyone does. Is the Western Conservative ideology too dangerous? Or maybe Ontarians just don't like their money. Maybe they feel sorry for beating the French in 1763.

Whatever the reason, until somebody can convince Ontario that the Liberals are ruining this country, they'll continue to shy from reason and accountability.

[Michael Hardner]

The Federal Liberals steal 100 Million $ and they sit at 41%. What the hell is Ontario so affraid of that they would rather have that much stolen from them than vote for the Conservatives.

$100 million out of a $180 billion dollar budget is about .055 %. I suppose that, previously, Canadians view a theft rate of .055 % as being preferable to handing the country to the unproven leadership of the Alliance or NDP.

Really now, I'll assume the worst from an Ontarian perspective and suppose Stephen Harper becomes the leader of the Conservatives. Do people in Toronto really think that he would ban all abortions and jail homosexuals and hand out handguns in the public library? Is this a likely scenario?

I don't even think he'd cut out the CBC. But he has had some yahoos in his party, even in his caucus.

Maybe it is not the social concerns, maybe it is economic? Perhaps the conservatives would hand our economy over to the US like those bastards in Mulroneys government did with the trade agreements and introduce more taxes. Wait just a second, buddy! Canada has slipped in all economic indexes under Paul Martins watch and a corrupt government won't help matters.

Ontario voted in the Conservative's dream Mike Harris TWICE, so that can't be it.

Look, I can understand Atlantic Canada and Quebec voting for the highest bidder via the PC's and Liberals, even the Praries can be forgiven for supporting these former and current parasites as they hope to benefit or at least create a simbiotic orgy. I don't get Ontario's pathetic blind faith in Paul Martin. It is time, Ontario, to start leading this nation towards a populist agenda where Canadians don't steal from Canadians.

If Harper could keep the bumpkins in line for, let's say, one year then perhaps he could garner some trust. Ontario has fresh memories of what happens when you elect complete greenhorns to run the show (NDP in '90) and are less willing to experiment today.

Let me make one final observation, if Ontario doesn't live up to its role in this Canadian confederation to punish those that transgress and abuse the public purse and choose to do nothing then they will see this country spiral into the void failed idealology.

It's Ontario's role to punish transgressors ? Not at all - it's the CPC's role to convince people to vote for them. Ontario has shown its willingness to vote for conservatives - providing they are convinced of the leader's ability.

Ontario exists in Canada as the US exists in the world, in that a failure by the US affects the globe, A failure by Ontario lets all of Canada feel the pain. An Ontario that fails to lead within this country will be replaced in prominance by another. Anybody care to guess who might carry the new tourch in Confederation if Ontario fails? That is correct! Alberta.

Is Ontario the Prime Minsiter now ? These roles you describe are in your mind only. If Harper wins the leadership, and can't convince people that he can do better then the CPC needs a new leader.

I know of no Ontarian who praises the Liberals. Rather, Ontarians see the Liberals as the least worst choice.

Goldie, you ask the same questions my father has been asking for years. It was before the 97 election that he said something to the effect of, Ontario better not vote Liberal, or this country's in trouble.

Said the same thing, only more vehemently, and with more despair, 3 years later in 2000.

And he's saying it again. Ontario continues to vote Liberal federally, and you and him both can't understand why. I doubt anyone does. Is the Western Conservative ideology too dangerous? Or maybe Ontarians just don't like their money. Maybe they feel sorry for beating the French in 1763.

See my comments above. I think the Alliance was too rash in dumping Preston Manning. Eastern voters were just starting to get used to him when they switched off for Stockwell Day. And the resulting internecine battles probably put the party out of contention for the next election too.

Whatever the reason, until somebody can convince Ontario that the Liberals are ruining this country, they'll continue to shy from reason and accountability. 

As I pointed out, Ontario might be thinking pragmatically. .055 % isn't a lot of theft.

If you had a choice of hiring two people for a $ 50,000 a year job and you knew that the first person could do the job competently but would steal $27 in office supplies throughout the year, but the second person was an unknown - you might go with the first person anyway.

That said, the Liberals have taken a huge hit and are flying in minority government airspace now.

[Pellaken]

the liberals are in deep doo-doo over this. expect their fall to stop at 30%. I wouldent be surprised to see the Conservative Party in first place at some point.

the problem is that all those people who said "I'll leave the party of Harper/Stronach wins" havent left yet.

Layton is starting to suffer from not being an MP

this election is changing from

"who do you want to win" to "who do you want to lose" and we already had 3 of these elections since 1993.

This bodes well for the Bloc Quebecois. I, honestly, wouldent be surprised if they managed to pull off an official opposition somehow.

[Goldie]

Michael Hardner

I don't buy your, Ontario would rather elect petty thiefs than an unknown. They elected Mulroney in 1984 and handed John Turner his walking papers. Perhaps it has more to do with Ontarios prejudice towards western leaders?

This is the only logical conclusion that I can find to explain Ontarios voting preference. My message to Ontario is, shame on you! Your collective anti-western sentiment, keeping qualified people from power, only because they are westerners is hurting this country.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael Hardner

I don't buy your, Ontario would rather elect petty thiefs than an unknown. They elected Mulroney in 1984 and handed John Turner his walking papers.

Turner was a relative unknown as well. We may be looking at a replay of 1984 right now.

Perhaps it has more to do with Ontarios prejudice towards western leaders?

Westerners often parrot this accusation but I don't see any evidence of this at all. I've never heard anyone say that they're voting for/against a party because the leader is from a particular region.

How many Prime Ministers have been from Ontario in the last thirty years and how many from the west ?

By my count we've had 0 PMs sitting as members from Ontario, 2 from BC, 1 from Alberta, and 3 from Quebec.

This is the only logical conclusion that I can find to explain Ontarios voting preference. My message to Ontario is, shame on you! Your collective anti-western sentiment, keeping qualified people from power, only because they are westerners is hurting this country.

This is all happening inside your own head. Ontario has elected 3 more westerners than Ontarians even.

And how many westerners has Ontario rejected ?

Perhaps 3: Kim Campbell, Stockwell Day and Preston Manning. I contend that if Manning was leader today, he'd be ahead of Martin in the polls.

As for the other two - Campbell and Day - can you blame Ontario (and/or Canada) for rejecting them ?

[udawg]

If you had a choice of hiring two people for a $ 50,000 a year job and you knew that the first person could do the job competently but would steal $27 in office supplies throughout the year, but the second person was an unknown - you might go with the first person anyway.

Who said the Liberals are doing the job competently? The sponsorship scandal is just the latest in a long string of major problems. We've alienated several allies, our pilots are still dying, voter turnout is still at record lows, the gun registry is still costing money, and our government is continuing to take actions the Canadian public does not approve of.

How can that possibly be construed as competence?

And our government IS to Canada as the US is to the world. Unilaterally taking action against the wishes of the rest of the people.

[udawg]

I contend that if Manning was leader today, he'd be ahead of Martin in the polls.

No doubt about it, Preston Manning has the experience and trust that voters want to see in the new Conservative Party.

However, the reason he was dumped is fairly obvious too, in that they wanted new leaders, to appear fresh and rejuvenated, and when they remerged, they didn't want to look like the same old PCs or Reform/Alliance that was the original problem.

Nonetheless, a guy like Manning would be ideal at this time.

[maplesyrup]

The name changing of political parties is a bit of a joke as a leopard doesn't chnages its stripes

To keep track of Reform I just say:

Reform 1 (Reform)

Rfeorm 2 (Alliance) and now

Reform 3 (Conservatives)

Since some of the provincial NDP difficulties, the federal NDP has explored changing its name, however as their fortunes have increased recently that may not be such issue for them anymore.

Now with this sponsorship scandal I bet some Liberals would like to change the name of their party as well.

[Kiraly]

I hate when good analogies go bad.

[Michael Hardner]

We've alienated several allies, our pilots are still dying, voter turnout is still at record lows, the gun registry is still costing money, and our government is continuing to take actions the Canadian public does not approve of.

The Liberals followed the polls on Iraq. You could tell they were doing it right up until the moment that they had to commit.

The problem of faith in our democratic institutions was the first thing mentioned by Martin in his first speech, so this is something he's obviously planning to address.

The gun registry was another mistake, but the voters who are most upset about it are gun owners, IMO.

How can that possibly be construed as competence?

And our government IS to Canada as the US is to the world. Unilaterally taking action against the wishes of the rest of the people.

I don't see how a government that managed 50% support until recently can be said to be going against the wishes of the people. A criticism I had of the Chretien government is that they governed by polls, often choosing the safe path over the one that might be right.

But even then, the answer can't be that the people of Canada are idiots. You have to have faith in democracy. The people of Ontario elected two solid conservative majorities in the 1990s.

The Liberals rode a healthy economy and general unease with upsetting the status quo to three majorities.

Now, we have three new faces leading the major parties. Martin may have to pay for the sins of the father.

[KrustyKidd]

I don't see how a government that managed 50% support until recently can be said to be going against the wishes of the people.

What does the average Joe know about national and international affairs? Zip. What do people like us know about same? Slightly more than zip. The information we have is hours/days old and the background info is stale if it is there as well. The only guage we have on how well a government is doing is by it's overall actions and $ in the bank.

It's called leadership, if you have it they make sound decisions with or withut polls. Bush and Blair did that against the will of the people and based on what they though was compelling reason. If you listen to the will of the people then you will quickly find yourself in this position;

Referandum #1 - cut government spending to nothing

Referandum #2 - increase all government services

Refereandum # 3 - do not run a deficit

[Goldie]

Michael Hardner

By my count we've had 0 PMs sitting as members from Ontario, 2 from BC, 1 from Alberta, and 3 from Quebec.

In the last thirty years the most support thrown at a western leader by Ontarians was Joe Clark. 57 seats or 41% of the popular vote in 1979. Equal to the current leader of the petty theifs.

Kim Cambell and John Turner did not fare as well. This is very interesting and may be as close to proof of anti-westite sentiment in Ontario as you get.

John Turner was not a relative unknown having served in Pearson's and Trudeau's government. Mulroney came out of nowhere. This is actually written in books so I am sure it doesn't only exist in my mind. In 1984 John only was able to get 12 seats.

Fast forward to the 1988 election on free trade, the one that brought in Paul Martin. An incredible 59% of Ontarians voted against free trade but because Ontario couldn't bring themselves to consolidate behind a westerner, the Conservatives picked up a majority of the seats, 46.

In 1993 Kim Campbell, a popular minister at the time up against Jean Cretien, a minister in the very same cabinet as John Turner in the same governments of Pearson and Trudeau, barking the same tune as the former leader. Remember, scrap the GST and the trade agreements. What the hell changed in Ontario in 5 years to give Jean a sweep in that province? Well the leaders swapped birth certificates that's what.

Do we really believe attack ads did Kim Campbell in? No, she simply gave an excuse to voters to dump on her like they wanted to dump on Mulroney in 1988 but just couldn't overcome a prejudice of the west.

How pathetic that Mr. Harper has to state that he was born in Ontario to validate his leadership bid. How pathetic that a person from Ontario is a serious contender in that leadership contest simply because she was born in Ontario. She has high school education and a rich dad and if she wins the leadership it will be because Ontario made that happen.

[Pellaken]

its sorry that you just dont get it

sad

very very very sad

it has NOTHING to do with where mr.klien, mr.campbell, harper, devine, hermanson, etc... are born

it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact they they are right-wing extremists.

[Kiraly]

its sorry that you just dont get it

sad

very very very sad

it has NOTHING to do with where mr.klien, mr.campbell, harper, devine, hermanson, etc... are born

it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact they they are right-wing extremists.

Goldie makes some valid observations....

...seems to "get it" more than you, as your lazy rebuttal would indicate.

Please describe how you have come to the conclusion that the label "right-wing extremist" applies to Stephen Harper.

The more it is said doesn't make it more true.

[Michael Hardner]

Krusty:

It's called leadership, if you have it they make sound decisions with or withut polls. Bush and Blair did that against the will of the people and based on what they though was compelling reason. If you listen to the will of the people then you will quickly find yourself in this position;

Referandum #1 - cut government spending to nothing

Referandum #2 - increase all government services

Refereandum # 3 - do not run a deficit

This makes me wonder what you meant when you criticized the Libs for going against the will of the people.

[Michael Hardner]

In the last thirty years the most support thrown at a western leader by Ontarians was Joe Clark. 57 seats or 41% of the popular vote in 1979. Equal to the current leader of the petty theifs.

Kim Cambell and John Turner did not fare as well. This is very interesting and may be as close to proof of anti-westite sentiment in Ontario as you get.

These two were rejected by Canadians in general and the west as well.

John Turner was not a relative unknown having served in Pearson's and Trudeau's government. Mulroney came out of nowhere. This is actually written in books so I am sure it doesn't only exist in my mind. In 1984 John only was able to get 12 seats.

Still, he was a new face. Mulroney was a skilled orator who convinced Canadians of his vision of Canada.

If Turner had been more familliar, we might have seen a different result.

Fast forward to the 1988 election on free trade, the one that brought in Paul Martin. An incredible 59% of Ontarians voted against free trade but because Ontario couldn't bring themselves to consolidate behind a westerner, the Conservatives picked up a majority of the seats, 46.

Again, Mulroney was the incumbant.

In 1993 Kim Campbell, a popular minister at the time up against Jean Cretien, a minister in the very same cabinet as John Turner in the same governments of Pearson and Trudeau, barking the same tune as the former leader. Remember, scrap the GST and the trade agreements. What the hell changed in Ontario in 5 years to give Jean a sweep in that province? Well the leaders swapped birth certificates that's what.

Campbell was a new face and the PC party ran an awful campaign.

Do we really believe attack ads did Kim Campbell in? No, she simply gave an excuse to voters to dump on her like they wanted to dump on Mulroney in 1988 but just couldn't overcome a prejudice of the west.

You don't have any evidence of this at all. There's more anti-Quebec sentiment in Ontario by far, from my experience.

How pathetic that Mr. Harper has to state that he was born in Ontario to validate his leadership bid. How pathetic that a person from Ontario is a serious contender in that leadership contest simply because she was born in Ontario. She has high school education and a rich dad and if she wins the leadership it will be because Ontario made that happen.

You have made Ontario into a bogeyman of sorts, I think. There is no evidence of any significant anti-western sentiment in Ontario because there is no significant anti-western sentiment. Every example you gave was of a western politican who was either 1) an unproven entity as leader or 2) made significant errors. Or both.

And you didn't even respond to my point that no PM has come from Ontario in that time.

I'm starting to think that this myth has been formented by western politicians to garner votes. This is cheap and divisive campaigning, and it won't work.

If you really think Ontario is anti-west, I suspect nothing will change your mind. You should probably join the western separatist fold as that is the mindset that you seem to be comfortable with.