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U.S. border agents given power to seize travellers' laptops, cellp


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I will have to think very hard about whether or not I go back to the US any time soon. I have no desire to have any devices seized without reason. I think many Canadians will be giving this a long hard look as will many Americans as they are subject to the same thing when returning home.

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I think many Canadians will be giving this a long hard look as will many Americans as they are subject to the same thing when returning home.

True but there will also be plenty of noisy people who will cheer this and complain that if Canada want's to be taken seriously on the world stage it had better adopt the same measures. And we will, you just watch.

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I will have to think very hard about whether or not I go back to the US any time soon....

Ahhh...but you will think about it, compared to an outright personal ban on travel because of this border search policy. I wonder if Ahmed Ressam felt the same way about US customs officials searching his rental car's spare tire well. Turns out that "Canadian agents" tracked him for at least two years. The nerve of them!

Lotsa talk down here about defending the borders......that includes laptops and cellphones. I mean c'mon, they could do a body cavity search before but now this is the last straw.....your laptop?

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Lotsa talk down here about defending the borders......that includes laptops and cellphones. I mean c'mon, they could do a body cavity search before but now this is the last straw.....your laptop?

After last crossing the Us border, I already decided it would be a while before I went back. Now i really doubt that it will be any time in the next decade at least.

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After last crossing the Us border, I already decided it would be a while before I went back. Now i really doubt that it will be any time in the next decade at least.

OK...that's your call. But why is there any expectation other than the Americans doing as they legally please at their border entry points? Securing the borders is a huge...I MEAN HUGE.....political issue in the USA. Did you think we would give Canadians with laptops a pass?

P.S. Most of the Mexican/Canadian illegals are not wielding laptops when crossing, but they do have cell phones! :lol:

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But why is there any expectation other than the Americans doing as they legally please at their border
I guess you could make to same argument about the Russians and Chinese jailing political dissidents and censoring the press. After all it is legal according to their laws. The issue here is not whether the US has the legal right to do such things - the issue is whether the arbitrary seizure of travellers belongings without any evidence of wrongdoing is a reasonable.
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I guess you could make to same argument about the Russians and Chinese jailing political dissidents and censoring the press. After all it is legal according to their laws. The issue here is not whether the US has the legal right to do such things - the issue is whether the arbitrary seizure of travellers belongings without any evidence of wrongdoing is a reasonable.

"Reasonable" to who? Americans with DUI convictions are often barred from entry into Canada...is that reasonable? Specific "Hip-hop" artists are also held at the border for very careful scrutiny. Why are laptops and cellphones elevated to a higher privacy status than any other personal effect subject to inspection and search?

If one doesn't want to be subjected to such search and seizure, do not present at the border. Frankly, I find it to be humorous that one would still want entry after such scathing criticism.

My laptop has been inspected for years.....and I didn't even have to cross the border.

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"Reasonable" to who? Americans with DUI convictions are often barred from entry into Canada...is that reasonable? Specific "Hip-hop" artists are also held at the border for very careful scrutiny. Why are laptops and cellphones elevated to a higher privacy status than any other personal effect subject to inspection and search?

If one doesn't want to be subjected to such search and seizure, do not present at the border. Frankly, I find it to be humorous that one would still want entry after such scathing criticism.

My laptop has been inspected for years.....and I didn't even have to cross the border.

I think you might have missed the point that a traveller would not get his laptop back for some time. Certainly, long after his trip to the US was over. The reason given is that the security folks need time to dump the hard drive and inspect all the data in case it had info on how to build WMDs or something.

Consider the plight of a salesman. His laptop is his work tool. Take it away and there is no point to his US trip. No more PowerPoint presentations. Back to an easel and flip charts.

I wonder if the same seizure rules are being applied to executives of GM when they cross back and forth.

Canada and the US do ZILLIONS of dollars in trade across the border, EVERY DAY! It's one thing to say that security trumps trade. While of course security is necessary that's still too simplistic. There's enough people losing their homes and jobs without adding to it without considering the effects of some security measures.

The issue is not about laptops, per se. It's about whether or not there's a useful amount of data likely to be inspected, balanced against the time involved with the inspection. ANY security idea pulled out of some Deputy Dan's butt is not as good as any other!

I mean, these are the same people that banned nail clippers from airplanes!

Is no one auditing these people for the EFFECTIVENESS of their methods? Or can they just apply any cockamamie idea they please?

Ah well, you get the help you pay for, I guess.

Edited by Wild Bill
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Ahhh...but you will think about it, compared to an outright personal ban on travel because of this border search policy. I wonder if Ahmed Ressam felt the same way about US customs officials searching his rental car's spare tire well. Turns out that "Canadian agents" tracked him for at least two years. The nerve of them!

Lotsa talk down here about defending the borders......that includes laptops and cellphones. I mean c'mon, they could do a body cavity search before but now this is the last straw.....your laptop?

And I know what it's like. They once mistook me for a drug dealer they were looking for. :ph34r:

I've always assumed they could seize anything they wanted if they felt there was justification.

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"Reasonable" to who? Americans with DUI convictions are often barred from entry into Canada...is that reasonable? Specific "Hip-hop" artists are also held at the border for very careful scrutiny. Why are laptops and cellphones elevated to a higher privacy status than any other personal effect subject to inspection and search?

I have a friend who plays guitar (very well I might say) his band was going to the US to play some gigs. He was barred from entering the US for 5 years after the fact. All because he said he was going down to work. Which is true, their band was invited to play in a multple band bill. If he said he was going to jam with friends, he would have been let through. Is this reasonable??

Also, if you are a Canadian with a DUI, you cannot get into the US.

My laptop has been inspected for years.....and I didn't even have to cross the border.

This is 100% correct.

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I think you might have missed the point that a traveller would not get his laptop back for some time. Certainly, long after his trip to the US was over. The reason given is that the security folks need time to dump the hard drive and inspect all the data in case it had info on how to build WMDs or something.

I didn't miss the point at all....I just don't think it is an either/or proposition. Certainly US Customs has the right to seach and/or sieze a laptop, but their capacity to do so has a very practical limit. That's where the profiling and statistical sampling plans come in.

Consider the plight of a salesman. His laptop is his work tool. Take it away and there is no point to his US trip. No more PowerPoint presentations. Back to an easel and flip charts.

Maybe....but PC workstations are ubiquitous...as are clever storage and file tranfer methods.

I wonder if the same seizure rules are being applied to executives of GM when they cross back and forth.

They can't afford to do much crossing back and forth these days.

Canada and the US do ZILLIONS of dollars in trade across the border, EVERY DAY! It's one thing to say that security trumps trade. While of course security is necessary that's still too simplistic. There's enough people losing their homes and jobs without adding to it without considering the effects of some security measures.

Yep..one more pain in the ass....security vs. convenience!

The issue is not about laptops, per se. It's about whether or not there's a useful amount of data likely to be inspected, balanced against the time involved with the inspection. ANY security idea pulled out of some Deputy Dan's butt is not as good as any other!

They already know this. Methods and sources are adopted and abandoned all the time. Don't you remember micro-film and micro-dots?

I mean, these are the same people that banned nail clippers from airplanes!

Is no one auditing these people for the EFFECTIVENESS of their methods? Or can they just apply any cockamamie idea they please?

Ah well, you get the help you pay for, I guess.

Yep...

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Why are laptops and cellphones elevated to a higher privacy status than any other personal effect subject to inspection and search?
You are missing the point. I recognize that if I cross the border that my belongings are subject to search and if I bring anything that is prohibited by US law that my belongings may be seized. However, the new regulations allow customs officials to sieze my property even if the property itself is legal because they think there might be something suspcious on it. The fact that I have no way to prevent such seizures by conforming to US laws is what I find objectionable - not the fact that the US border guards might choose to rummage through my computer like they rummage though my bags.

Another thing to consider. If my computer drive is encrypted it will require my password or perhaps even my fingerprint to access. The US customs officials may have a right to demand that I show them my laptop but they don't have a right to demand access to my passwords or to give them access to files which I am legally required to keep secret. Do you really believe that Canadian border officials should be entitled to seize top secret military documents from a American general simply because he wants to cross the border?

Edited by Riverwind
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Back to an easel and flip charts.

Actually, under the new rules, they can take that too.

But lest say I'm a traveler simply going to the US for a vacation. Under this rule they could take my cell phone or black berry. I can tell your right now, that I would be turning back at the border if that were to happen. I will not be visiting the US until this wave of paranoia and protectionism passes.....maybe that means I won't be going back, who knows?

Edited by Smallc
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This law will be challenged and likely struck down. And whoever said they cannot get your password is correct. There is a case now whereby the person corssing has not and will not reveal the password and it is estimated it would take years to crack his code.

On the other hand there is one sure fire way around this....go work for the UN . A UN passport allows all materials , dead bodies and cocaine to pass unfettered.

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You are missing the point. I recognize that if I cross the border that my belongings are subject to search and if I bring anything that is prohibited by US law that my belongings may be seized. However, the new regulations allow customs officials to sieze my property even if the property itself is legal because they think there might be something suspcious on it. The fact that I have no way to prevent such seizures by conforming to US laws is what I find objectionable - not the fact that the US border guards might choose to rummage through my computer like they rummage though my bags.

Repeating myself...I am not missing the "point"....I am purposely discounting your personal objections if voluntarily presenting at any sovereign's border crossing. What is so special about your "laptop"? As others have indicated, perhaps you have never seen border agents disassemble a motor vehicle before your very eyes.

Another thing to consider. If my computer drive is encrypted it will require my password or perhaps even my fingerprint to access. The US customs officials may have a right to demand that I show them my laptop but they don't have a right to demand access to my passwords or to give them access to files which I am legally required to keep secret. Do you really believe that Canadian border officials should be entitled to seize top secret military documents from a American general simply because he wants to cross the border?

A very dramatic but improbable scenario for the big bad "American general". The answer is simple: no access to the hard/ram drive = no access for you. Anybody with strong encryption runs the chance of a double whammy.....higher risk profile and possible software encryption export violations.

Have a great trip!

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A very dramatic but improbable scenario for the big bad "American general".
It is not improbable at all because people carry secret materials on their laptop that is protected by strong encryption. More importantly these people could face civil suits or criminal charges if they gave access to people that are not authorized.
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It is not improbable at all because people carry secret materials on their laptop that is protected by strong encryption. More importantly these people could face civil suits or criminal charges if they gave access to people that are not authorized.

Official travel by military or government employees with classified materials is not confined to laptops, nor are the procedures to do so. I understand your objections, but this scenario will not win the day. Far more practical considerations will be more influential.

Many years before 9/11 we had to boot our PCs or Macs to the OS login or command prompt...spare batteries were also a cause for concern. We had the usual panic attacks about fogging film emulsion too. Back then it was just bombs, drugs and other contraband.

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Most companies store vital information on a server. Like we do here at Loblaws. I have a laptop with the programs I need, but all the information is on the server when I connect to it. This is how businesses get around that thing. The things I need are there wherever I connect. I am sure the company would be pissed if my laptop was held at the border.

Personal laptops are quite different. It is yours, and the information is yours.

If you always keep all your information on the laptop, then you could be asking for trouble. back your stuff up and often.

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If you always keep all your information on the laptop, then you could be asking for trouble. back your stuff up and often.

Right.....that makes a lot of sense. There are solid enterprise reasons for not being tied to a single/personal laptop for data and services. I guess I could hide a thumb drive in my.....ummm...nevermind. :lol:

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Right.....that makes a lot of sense. There are solid enterprise reasons for not being tied to a single/personal laptop for data and services. I guess I could hide a thumb drive in my.....ummm...nevermind. :lol:

Actually it makes a lot of sense. For instance, my work laptop was stolen from me at the warehouse a couple weeks ago. If I had all my information on there instead of the server, I would have been screwed. Not to mention fired. The information I had accumulated over the past year would have been gone if I did not store it server side.

There are also solid enterprise reasons for being tied to a single laptop. The programs I run are specific to my role and no one elses in the warehouse uses them.

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...There are also solid enterprise reasons for being tied to a single laptop. The programs I run are specific to my role and no one elses in the warehouse uses them.

Your image can be quickly restored to another laptop, or data retrieved to another workstation. A laptop is just a tool, and it can fail at any time. If your role is very dependent on a local client application, then, following your prudent advice, a backup or workaround should be in place.

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Your image can be quickly restored to another laptop, or data retrieved to another workstation. A laptop is just a tool, and it can fail at any time. If your role is very dependent on a local client application, then, following your prudent advice, a backup or workaround should be in place.

Yep, back up laptop. All my files backed up to the server and on my share drive. I gots two back ups.

Most of the programs I use exlusively to this role are just client programs, you need to log into the program to access the information. So since my main one was stolen, I had called it in, refuse it to connect to the network, and I had to change all my passwords. I can do most of my work through other workstations here, but some programs were soley on that laptop. So somethings I could not do, that is if I did not have my back up.

Someone just jacked it for some quick cash, they would format the thing then reinstall. It was not even a good laptop. It was 4 years old and I was waiting untill it died to get a new one.

So back up laptop, backed up files to the main server and to my share server.

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I have a friend who plays guitar (very well I might say) his band was going to the US to play some gigs. He was barred from entering the US for 5 years after the fact. All because he said he was going down to work. Which is true, their band was invited to play in a multple band bill. If he said he was going to jam with friends, he would have been let through. Is this reasonable??

Also, if you are a Canadian with a DUI, you cannot get into the US.

This is 100% correct.

You can entry Canada with a DUI BUT you have to have a special permission from the government. That is how GW Bush was able to come to Ottawa. I don't think Cheney has yet but then he has 2 DUI's to Bush's one!

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