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Obama in Europe, and with Foreigners


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Hello - I am new here, and as I didn't see an Intro thread and have not yet learned how to edit my profile (I keep getting "not allowed"?) I will simply say I am an American - and this looks like a very nice forum.

In regards to the topic, I think it is nice to see Obama cheered by Germans, but after the last few years I am not especially impressed by crowds in any nation. The same crowds that cheer for somone can quickly turn and change their minds. Americans have been told so often and so loudly by so many people that we are responsible for many of the world's evils that I no longer trust sudden changes.

If Obama loses, will those same crowds return to anti-Americanism? It's a frightening thought.

After Rumsfeld's offensive insults, I am glad to see a change of attittude, but Obama overdid the apologies. He made a tremendous - and surprising - mistake when he refused to visit American soldiers. That might not have been intentional, but it was a very serious mistake.

The attempts to imitate Kenndy and Reagan were a tasteless failure. Both Kennedy and Reagan earned their popularity. Obama has no experience yet, and he attempted to emulate them. It failed.

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In regards to the topic, I think it is nice to see Obama cheered by Germans, but after the last few years I am not especially impressed by crowds in any nation. The same crowds that cheer for somone can quickly turn and change their minds. Americans have been told so often and so loudly by so many people that we are responsible for many of the world's evils that I no longer trust sudden changes.

It's over three months to the election. They have to go through the conventions, the campaign ramps up and there are debates.

By then, who knows? The Dow might be down another 25% and Fannie and Freddie may in far worse shape than now with the mortgage crisis for individuals worse, not better.

You can guarantee events (not good) in Iran/Iraq/Pakistan/Afghanistan/Palestinian territories.

Will anybody care about a speech in Berlin in July?

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What is more interesting to watch?

A. Grass growing

B. A car wreck

... now I will explain this for you... *sigh*

-- politics in Canada is like watching grass grow - kinda boring, not much changes from party to party.

-- politics in the US is like a car wreck... you know your going to see something ugly but you look anyway.

You with me so far hon?

Again.... politics in Canada is boring. No towers are demolished by presidents, no children butchered -- b-o-r-i-n-g.

Yea...the children are just put in residential schools and sexually assaulted....boring!

In the USA there are terrorists around every corner, buildings fall (miraculously in their own footprints at freefall speed!) of their own accord, people die because they have no healthcare, people lose their homes because they have no jobs -- e-x-c-i-t-i-n-g.

Right...some of the terrorists even come from boring Canada! Even the people with healthcare die in the USA...exciting!

Get it now? It is more fun to watch your horror movie than our documentary on the speed of grass growth. LOL

...cue cricket noise.

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I do noy think that the opinion of the rest of the world is completely irrelevant to any election. After all, it seems that most presidents assume that gaining the White House means they can call themselves the " Leader of the Free World " . And yet, the rest of the " Free World " does not seem to get a say in the awarding of this rather suspect title. While there is no way to reasonably elect such a person to be called that, one should think that those who would like to claim the title should have to earn it in some way. For instance, it is clear that many people in Germany want Obama to have that title, and I would not be surprised at similar results in other countries. And yet, if McCain wins the election he will pretend that he is the leader of those people, even though the majority do not want him.

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.... For instance, it is clear that many people in Germany want Obama to have that title, and I would not be surprised at similar results in other countries. And yet, if McCain wins the election he will pretend that he is the leader of those people, even though the majority do not want him.

Correct.....which is why their choice remains irrelevant. If he/she is only the "leader of the free world" when policies are acceptable to a foreign "electorate", then they are not the leader at all. Conversely, if American voters started giving a damn about who the German chancellor was, there would be hell to pay. Most Americans can't even name such "leaders", let alone just a candidate for office. They don't care, don't need to care, and don't care that they don't care.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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That sounds like the beginning of a wonderful(ly bad) argument for dictatorships.

Or it is one manifestation of the resounding success of "liberty". The Americans first tried isolationism, and failing that because of circumstances beyond its borders, outright domination. Even at the peak of a bloody civil war, the American political system remained unshaken. A dictatorship in the making? Nope.

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What is more interesting to watch?

A. Grass growing

B. A car wreck

... now I will explain this for you... *sigh*

-- politics in Canada is like watching grass grow - kinda boring, not much changes from party to party.

-- politics in the US is like a car wreck... you know your going to see something ugly but you look anyway.

You with me so far hon?

Again.... politics in Canada is boring. No towers are demolished by presidents, no children butchered -- b-o-r-i-n-g.

In the USA there are terrorists around every corner, buildings fall (miraculously in their own footprints at freefall speed!) of their own accord, people die because they have no healthcare, people lose their homes because they have no jobs -- e-x-c-i-t-i-n-g.

Get it now? It is more fun to watch your horror movie than our documentary on the speed of grass growth. LOL

9/11 Conspiracy theories?

Anti-American rants?

Ugly stuff.

*sigh*

I was hoping for a thoughtful, interesting forum, but this is just rubbish. I have always had such a high opinion of Canadians - through personal experience. Now this sort of hatred appears more and more often.

Apparently this forum isn't what I thought it was. On to other pastures....

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Apparently this forum isn't what I thought it was. On to other pastures....

How interested could you have been in the first place if a single post by a single member is enough proof for you that this place is not for you? You need to read stuff by Kimmy, Charles Anthony, Renegade, Rue, Black Dog, Geoffrey, JDobbin and others, and once you have seen them all *then* you can say with better information at hand whether or not it is for you.

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Yea...the children are just put in residential schools and sexually assaulted....boring!

Right...some of the terrorists even come from boring Canada! Even the people with healthcare die in the USA...exciting!

...cue cricket noise.

Love the cricket noise... exactly my point. Canadian politics is just so boring... s'okay boring and safe is good IMO. LOL

and please try to stay in THIS century... killing natives was par for the course for Canada and the USA... just watched an informative show on the Apache last night -- you bastards were just as bad as Canada. So there.

and love the MYTH of terrorists coming from Canada BOOGA BOOGA... those were actually tourists...but with your english so bad it is easy to see how you are confused -- "turist" or "turist" -- which one has bombs and which one has money? LOL

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Love the cricket noise... exactly my point. Canadian politics is just so boring... s'okay boring and safe is good IMO. LOL

Boring is as boring does.

and please try to stay in THIS century... killing natives was par for the course for Canada and the USA... just watched an informative show on the Apache last night -- you bastards were just as bad as Canada. So there.

This "21st" century started in 2001....pay attention if you can.

and love the MYTH of terrorists coming from Canada BOOGA BOOGA... those were actually tourists...but with your english so bad it is easy to see how you are confused -- "turist" or "turist" -- which one has bombs and which one has money? LOL

Doesn't matter to us...we just lock 'em up in a federal pen or send them home for torture. Go Leafs!

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I have tried to follow this thread, and even my hijacking of this thread. I'm lost.

Rather, I'm reminded of a great line from the play "Shirley Valentine". You talk about how much you like spring and they answer that they like autumn, and the next thing you know, you're talking about autumn - because that's what they like. Americans, and men, are like that. They're the white keys on the piano.

For some reason you keep insisting on the "go out of their way" line of thought as if Bush isn't affecting a lot of "foreigners'" opinions of Americans right now. I mean, if you told anyone that you didn't like Stephen Harper and they wouldn't know what you were talking about it's because the rest of the world isn't exactly focusing on Stephen Harper and Canadians. Look at the reception/reaction Obama, who's just a presidential candidate, is getting right now. Canada prefers Obama too. The world has an opinion regarding our POTUS, our election. I was in Canada during the last election and even the customs officials said 'what are you doing here?' and when I said I already voted, they asked 'who do you think is going to win?' I told them, without going out of my way, that I didn't agree with Bush and that I sure hoped Kerry would win, and they were very interested in hearing what I had to say. Same thing happens everywhere. While you say people would look at you as if they didn't know what you were talking about, I get a very interested response, leading to a pretty intense discussion. Everyone wants to talk about it. Everyone has an opinion.

:huh:

...

You ask an off-the-wall question, people look at you oddly, and you think they're the curious ones?

AW, I rest my case.

If a Canadian customs guard asked you about the 2004 US election, she/he was being polite. (English Canadians tend to be.) If young Europeans/Germans flock to a big rave in July in Berlin with a black guy American, it's because it's cool.

Around the world, in case you Americans don't know, we all know about Mickey Mouse, jazz, Hollywood, nuclear missiles, Florida, Julia Roberts, B-52s, US dollars, the Statue of Liberty and whatever president is in power. As a Canadian abroad, I have often felt sorrow for Americans. You Americans have to carry the weight of Mickey Mouse, jazz, Hollywood, nuclear missiles, Florida, Julia Roberts, B-52s, US dollars, the Statue of Liberty and whatever president is in power. As a Canadian, I had none of that weight. I was just someone, like a Norwegian, or someone from New Zealand.

Name me something about Norway, or New Zealand, or Canada. You Americans are different. Everyone knows something about you. No one knows anything about Canada.

-----

The point of this thread was to ask whether Obama's popularity abroad (in Europe) would matter in November. I think the thread has answered my question. It won't. Americans admirably don't care about the outside world.

Americans are like adolescents. The world turns around them.

Edited by August1991
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Guest American Woman
If a Canadian customs guard asked you about the 2004 US election, she/he was being polite. (English Canadians tend to be.) If young Europeans/Germans flock to a big rave in July in Berlin with a black guy American, it's because it's cool.

First of all, I'm not a dolt, and secondly, I've done a fair amount of traveling, so I'm not so dense that I can't tell genuine interest from "polite." The customs officials I referred to most definitely were interested. Furthermore, I've gone through Canadian customs a bajillion times, and if you think all customs officials are "polite," think again. This idea that Canada is a country chock full of polite people is bull; you need to lose the self-perception that you are all polite, because you ain't.

Around the world, in case you Americans don't know, we all know about Mickey Mouse, jazz, Hollywood, nuclear missiles, Florida, Julia Roberts, B-52s, US dollars, the Statue of Liberty and whatever president is in power. As a Canadian abroad, I have often felt sorrow for Americans. You Americans have to carry the weight of Mickey Mouse, jazz, Hollywood, nuclear missiles, Florida, Julia Roberts, B-52s, US dollars, the Statue of Liberty and whatever president is in power. As a Canadian, I had none of that weight. I was just someone, like a Norwegian, or someone from New Zealand.

Yeah, we Americans are aware that the whole world is aware of us and our country. That's sort of the point I was making when I said you can't compare Americans to people from France and India; that you can't compare telling someone you don't agree with Stephen Harper to Americans telling someone they don't agree with Bush. Seems to me you're taking both sides of the discussion.

But no need to feel sorry for us. Americans get into many interesting discussions when they travel simply because people abroad are interested in talking to Americans.

Name me something about Norway, or New Zealand, or Canada. You Americans are different. Everyone knows something about you. No one knows anything about Canada.

Norway was listed as having the highest quality of life, New Zealand has the reputation of being the most beautiful place on earth, and Canada isn't full of polite people like y'all think you are. How's that? :)

The point of this thread was to ask whether Obama's popularity abroad (in Europe) would matter in November. I think the thread has answered my question. It won't. Americans admirably don't care about the outside world.

So in our endearing quest to be liked, we don't care about the rest of the world? Again, seems to me you're talking both sides of the discussion.

Americans are like adolescents. The world turns around them.

Ummmm, no. Big difference. Adolescents only think the world turns around them, while the world really does turn around Americans. ;)

Edited to add: The Shirley Valentine quote you're referring to is only about men, not men and Americans.

Edited by American Woman
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So in our endearing quest to be liked, we don't care about the rest of the world?
Precisely. Americans are like men. Occasionally charming but usually oblivious.
Edited to add: The Shirley Valentine quote you're referring to is only about men, not men and Americans.
British men, I reckon.

AW, I'll put you down as charming not oblivious. (Since I assume you're a woman, you can translate that as a woman referring to a man rather than a foreigner referring to an American.)

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If 200,000 people hadn't turned up for Obama's speech, nobody would care if he was acting presidential, presumptive or whatever. The bottom line is, the world is urging Americans to do the right thing and get rid of this disastrous Republican rule. Like huh, please don't make the same mistake for a third time?

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If 200,000 people hadn't turned up for Obama's speech, nobody would care if he was acting presidential, presumptive or whatever. The bottom line is, the world is urging Americans to do the right thing and get rid of this disastrous Republican rule. Like huh, please don't make the same mistake for a third time?

Since when does Germany (of all places) represent what the "world" is urging? The Americans will do the right thing for America, and to hell with whatever the "world" thinks about it or wants (so wonderful have been all the "world's" choices after all).

Dick Cheney for president! :lol:

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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Since when does Germany (of all places) represent what the "world" is urging? The Americans will do the right thing for America, and to hell with whatever the "world" thinks about it or wants (so wonderful have been all the "world's" choices after all).

Dick Cheney for president! :lol:

Spot on guy! Nothing beats the satisfaction of knowing that one is acting in one's enlightened self-interest. :rolleyes:

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Guest American Woman
QUOTE=bush_cheney2004: Since when does Germany (of all places) represent what the "world" is urging? The Americans will do the right thing for America, and to hell with whatever the "world" thinks about it or wants (so wonderful have been all the "world's" choices after all).

Dick Cheney for president!

Spot on guy! Nothing beats the satisfaction of knowing that one is acting in one's enlightened self-interest. :rolleyes:

I don't think Carinthia was just referring to the crowds in Germany.

World prefers Obama as president

If Barack Obama were running for leader of the world, instead of leader of the US, he would probably romp home.

The annual global survey of attitudes by the independent Pew Research Centre shows that the Democratic nominee for president has won the confidence of people in Europe, Asia, Africa and Australia and is strongly preferred as president of the US over his rival, the Republican John McCain.

Overseas, Excitement Over Obama

The primary race generated unprecedented interest outside the United States, much of it a reflection of a desire for change from the policies of President Bush, who surveys show is deeply unpopular around the globe.

Poll: Canadians Prefer Obama To Their Own Leaders

The [...] survey conducted by the Strategic Counsel for CTV and The Globe and Mail, showed that here in Canada, Obama was more admired than Prime Minister Stephen Harper -- or any other national leader.

Barack Obama beats John McCain in European vote: US election 2008

John McCain, the presumed Republican nominee, received only 15 per cent of the vote in unprecedented survey covering Britain, France, Germany, Italy and Russia.

And so it goes ....

Edited by American Woman
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....I don't think Carinthia was just referring to the crowds in Germany.

Even better.....was she referring perhaps to the crowds in Israel, or Iran, or Burundi, or maybe Albania, where President Bush is a "rock star"?

But I shouldn't leave 200,000 Germans out....they have a swell history of picking the world's best "Fuhrer".

Heil, mein Fuhrer Barack Obama!

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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I think Obama is the luckiest politician in some time with a combination of many things happening for him:

1. First of all, he's a big beneficiary of Identity politics: A black man who acts "white", so appeals to the white voter as well as the black voter.

And before anyone jumps on me for such a "race-based" comment, remember it's the race-obsessed Dems who play the Identity politics game so well (it's about time we had a woman/black man etc. in the whitehouse/senate etc...)

2. Second, he's sooo lucky that Hillary is a female version of Al Gore: too academic, robotic, and basically unlikeable

3. Whereas the Republicans tend to use a "who's turn is it" system of nomination, the Dems seem to go for the "flavour du jour"...always look for the next big one-hit wonder. Think Bill Clinton, Howard Dean, Barack Obama etc.... for example, if Ron Paul had run in the Dem camp, he probably would have given Obama a run for his money. This is again a symptom of the short-sighted thinking on the left. "What's popular today?"

4. He's benefitting from a reflex tired-of-the-war sentiment in the nation right now.

5. Oprah likes him

6. The press is in love with him

7. He's running against a guy who looks like he's fallnig apart. For exmaple, in yesterday's coverage we had OBAMA sitting at a table full of world leaders and MCCAIN having a growth removed from his face. See #6 for explanation.

Elections are a "feel good" game. Right now Obama has all the "feel good" vibes emanating from him.

Is he peaking too soon? Time will tell. Strange things shappen. If the Nutter-Islamists blow up a plane over the Atlantic, a lot will change. Given the Hard Core Islamist's 100-year outlook on the "war" (as opposed to our 5 year A.D.D. approach), I thnk they're too smart to pull off a major attack before the election. After all, we all know Hezbollah has endorsed Obama. Why? We should all be asking ourselves that.

One thing I have noticed, however. Americans, when intereviewed, for the first time I;ve ever seen are citing how "europeans do things" as a model for how to structure their society / foreign policy.

To me this is dangerous. Europe is a clusterf*ck. If Obama is popular in Europe, this is a pretty good sign he's on the wrong track policy-wise.

Edited by JerrySeinfeld
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So, you are saying the grandchildren of those who were German in the time of the Nazis are as blind as their forefathers are? I wonder what that same logic would say about the grandson of a man who wanted to take over the United States in a military coup...

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So, you are saying the grandchildren of those who were German in the time of the Nazis are as blind as their forefathers are? I wonder what that same logic would say about the grandson of a man who wanted to take over the United States in a military coup...

No, you just said that. I don't want even an enlightened "skinhead" Germany to select my president thank-you very much. There was no "coup" in the United States.....but Germany sure had one hell of a "good time" at the world's expense....Ja?

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He's a big beneficiary of Identity politics: A black man who acts "white", so appeals to the white voter as well as the black voter.

And before anyone jumps on me for such a "race-based" comment, remember it's the race-obsessed Dems who play the Identity politics game so well (it's about time we had a woman/black man etc. in the whitehouse/senate etc...)

He's not a black man who acts white. He is a man of half African and half European descent. The identity politics comes into play through him portraying himself predominantly - almost exclusively - as a black man; which the media laps up like honey, and perhaps the Democratic Party as well, as you suggest. Overall, he's painted as the full-blooded African-American who will take the White House, when, in reality, he's half Caucasian anyway.

Edited by g_bambino
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He's not a black man who acts white. He is a man of half African and half European descent. The identity politics comes into play through him portraying himself predominantly - almost exclusively - as a black man; which the media laps up like honey, and perhaps the Democratic Party as well, as you suggest. Overall, he's painted as the full-blooded African-American who will take the White House, when, in reality, he's half Caucasian anyway.

Yes heard alot of talk about that, but again, regardless of the facts or the his actual "lineage" as it were, the point, as you made, is that Barack holds a unique set of cards; he can play up his "black" image for the people obsessed with race: african americans, liberals, limousine socialists, etc. And at the same time, he can pull off a good white-guy schtick and appeal to the broader un-obsessed bunch because he's not a raving lunatic as per Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton or some of the other way-too-obvious african-american politicans who got rich on divisiveness.

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