Obama in Europe, and with Foreigners

[August1991]

European enthusiasm for Barack Obama - as witnessed in Berlin - is in part created by hopes that President Obama would be, er, more European. Some feel there is evidence to back up this view.

BBC

Les Européens, de leur côté, ont pu vérifier l'efficacité redoutable de la campagne du premier Noir à briguer la présidence des États-Unis. L'«Obamania» qui déferle en Europe n'en sera que renforcée.

...

En recevant son hôte à l'Élysée, Nicolas Sarkozy pouvait donc souligner avec fierté combien «les Français aiment les Américains». Le visage des États-Unis que nous donne Barack Obama, cette «convergence de vues», relevée sur bien des sujets, arrivent à point nommé pour justifier le retour de notre pays dans le commandement unifié de l'Otan et la recherche de meilleures relations transatlantiques.

Le Figaro

Is it good or bad for a US presidential candidate to be perceived well abroad?

If Obama is perceived as a "World Beat Candidate", if he is perceived as more European, if the French president refers to "common views", will that help Obama get votes in America?

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There is irony (or is it satire?) that an isolationist candidate may defeat an interventionist candidate because American voters prefer a guy who can travel abroad and be cool.

Obama may go abroad but he wants America to come home.

[maldon_road]

Is it good or bad for a US presidential candidate to be perceived well abroad?

If Obama is perceived as a "World Beat Candidate", if he is perceived as more European, if the French president refers to "common views", will that help Obama get votes in America?

He will be judged on his policies and not that he had 200,000 Germans cheering at him, many of whom didn't have the foggiest idea what he was saying.

If those policies are congruent with what Europeans want to hear, fine. But if he is just saying things to make Europeans feel nice that could all backfire.

But he didn't pull punches. He made it clear he wants the Euros to belly up to the bar in Afghanistan. I doubt that went down well in many governments.

[August1991]

He will be judged on his policies and not that he had 200,000 Germans cheering at him, many of whom didn't have the foggiest idea what he was saying.

If those policies are congruent with what Europeans want to hear, fine. But if he is just saying things to make Europeans feel nice that could all backfire.

But he didn't pull punches. He made it clear he wants the Euros to belly up to the bar in Afghanistan. I doubt that went down well in many governments.

Judged on his policies but not the 200,000 at his speech? Then why have a mammoth speech?

"Belly up at the bar?" Does Obama really want Europeans to contribute in Afghanistan? Iraq? Is that what Obama wanted four months ago? Is this another flip-flop?

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I admire Obama (and his campaign staff). All this Euro PR cements his latte-drinking base in America.

Now, Obama has to go after the middle ground soccer moms.

[Shady]

I thought Obama delivered a fabulous speech, as usual. I've grown fond of dubbing it the "Duh" speech.

We need to take care of the environment....Duh

We need to fight poverty....Duh

We need to fight AIDS....Duh

We need to fight racism....Duh

We need to fight terrorism and extremism....Duh

We need to promote freedom....Duh

And we need to work together....Duh

Wow, I can't imagine the political courage it took to give THAT speech in the heart of Europe. Move over John F Kennedy and Ronald Reagan. If you think those guys ruffled some feathers through their ground-breaking speeches, they got nothing on Barack Obama. I can honestly say that in my opinion, after that preformance, he definitely has the electoral votes of Germany locked up.

Edited July 25, 2008 by Shady

[capricorn]

After listening to Obama's overseas speeches, the message I took from them is that the US is not as powerful, strong or loved as it used to be. Obama's answer to this turn of events is the need for like-minded nations to reach consensus on issues. But then, the problem may be that I failed to position myself in the rarified Obamic head space to fully comprehend his oratory.

[Leafless]

He will be judged on his policies and not that he had 200,000 Germans cheering at him, many of whom didn't have the foggiest idea what he was saying.

I agree with this statement from the initial article:

This speech is being compared to those made in Berlin by John F Kennedy and Ronald Reagan - but they were sitting presidents.

For Mr Obama to become president himself, this event - and the tour of which it is part - must be seen in a positive light by the voters back home in America, our correspondent says.

And that is exactly what was planned.

An Obama president style propaganda speech, specifically designed to drum up votes back in the U.S.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Leafless

[eyeball]

It'll take a lot more observation and time before I ever I trust Obama the politician but the obvious outward expressions of hope people display for his message just about everywhere he goes are encouraging. This hope at least seems genuine and it seems to reflect a real yearning to go a completely different direction than the one Bush and the neo-con's have taken - a lot farther than most probably imagined. Personally I think most people need to experience what it is they don't need before they believe it. I guess I've seen to many kids burn their fingers on hot things after they've been told touching them would hurt.

[bush_cheney2004]

After listening to Obama's overseas speeches, the message I took from them is that the US is not as powerful, strong or loved as it used to be. Obama's answer to this turn of events is the need for like-minded nations to reach consensus on issues. But then, the problem may be that I failed to position myself in the rarified Obamic head space to fully comprehend his oratory.

OTOH, embracing a US presidential candidate (not yet president) could mean that the US is indeed as powerful and strong...being loved is a Canadian value, not American.

[eyeball]

...being loved is a Canadian value, not American.

True enough, you OTOH appear to value being feared and loathed.

[bush_cheney2004]

True enough, you OTOH appear to value being feared and loathed.

Again, this is shaped by your perspective as the "mouse"...not elephant (according to PM Trudeau). I notice this sort of misplaced anthropomorphism from several members wrt nation states and national interests. If you count the number of people voting with their feet, America is still "loved" by quite a few people (and has been for quite some time), but it really has nothing to do with "love" at all.

[Moonlight Graham]

Overall, this trip i believe has helped Obama more than it has hurt him.

[maldon_road]

Again, this is shaped by your perspective as the "mouse"...not elephant (according to PM Trudeau). I notice this sort of misplaced anthropomorphism from several members wrt nation states and national interests. If you count the number of people voting with their feet, America is still "loved" by quite a few people (and has been for quite some time), but it really has nothing to do with "love" at all.

Right. Millions want to live in the US (and will court death to get there) but few want to move out of the country.

[Richie777]

Just because Obama was cheered by Germans and Frenchmen doesn't translate into votes by Americans. This was a nice trip he took, but that's all it was, a nice trip.

[Leafless]

Just because Obama was cheered by Germans and Frenchmen doesn't translate into votes by Americans. This was a nice trip he took, but that's all it was, a nice trip.

If this was only a "nice trip" and the U.S. presidential campaign has not even begun, nor the party conventions have not yet been held, then what the hell is Obama giving president like speeches for?

[Guest American Woman]

Just because Obama was cheered by Germans and Frenchmen doesn't translate into votes by Americans. This was a nice trip he took, but that's all it was, a nice trip.

That's not "all it was" by any means. Fact is, it was different things to different people. To those who would like to see better relations with Europe again after the Bush administration disaster, it was a step in the right direction and an indication of what Obama will find important as POTUS. To those who don't give a damn what European's think, his trip likely won't mean anything-- but then, those people wouldn't be likely to vote for him anyway. So overall, I would think this trip would have to have a positive effect on people who would actually vote for him.

[August1991]

To those who would like to see better relations with Europe again after the Bush administration disaster, it was a step in the right direction and an indication of what Obama will find important as POTUS. To those who don't give a damn what European's think, his trip likely won't mean anything-- but then, those people wouldn't be likely to vote for him anyway. So overall, I would think this trip would have to have a positive effect on people who would actually vote for him.

Among the people will in fact vote (roughly 100 million), about 40% will vote for Obama regardless and another 40% will vote for McCain, regardless.

That leaves us with the 20% in between (and to be honest, I think I'm far over-estimating that percentage).

Among these "marginal" voters, will the PR success of a candidate in Europe help or hinder? IMHO, Americans like to know that their leaders are respected and liked abroad. Americans like to be liked. OTOH, since the attacks of September 2001 and even before, many Americans would almost prefer a president held in low regard by Europeans and foreigners. ("If foreigners don't like him, he must be good" goes the thinking.)

Anyway, I think this will be largely irrelevant in November. Domestic issues are so much more important than foreign affairs and the only foreign policy of any importance will be US military abroad.

As Richard Nixon once famously said, "Nobody gives a damn about the lira. There ain't a vote in it."

[Guest American Woman]

As Richard Nixon once famously said, "Nobody gives a damn about the lira. There ain't a vote in it."

There ain't a lira any more, either. The times they are a changin'. It's a smaller world now, and I think these things matter more than they used to-- especially among younger voters who seem to be taking a real interest this time around.

Among these "marginal" voters, will the PR success of a candidate in Europe help or hinder? IMHO, Americans like to know that their leaders are respected and liked abroad. Americans like to be liked. OTOH, since the attacks of September 2001 and even before, many Americans would almost prefer a president held in low regard by Europeans and foreigners. ("If foreigners don't like him, he must be good" goes the thinking.)

I don't think most Americans really care about being "liked" abroad. I couldn't care less about being liked, either. I don't, however, like the fact that there's less respect for the U.S. since Bush.

But I'm guessing there's a large number of Americans who would want support from other nations in the wake of 9-11, so I can't imagine Americans preferring a president held in low regard by Europeans and foreigners. I don't understand where that's coming from.

Anyway, I think this will be largely irrelevant in November. Domestic issues are so much more important than foreign affairs and the only foreign policy of any importance will be US military abroad.

Maybe yes, maybe no. But if Obama is going to become the next POTUS, it's a good thing none the less.

[August1991]

I don't think most Americans really care about being "liked" abroad. I couldn't care less about being liked, either. I don't, however, like the fact that there's less respect for the U.S. since Bush.

On the contrary, IME when I've met Americans abroad, I find them almost adolescent in their desire to be liked. It's even endearing.

Don't let your dislike of Bush get mixed up in trying to understand the relevance of how foreigners perceive a candidate.

AW, you may be surprised to learn that the dislike of Bush abroad has sadly more to do with America than it does with Bush.

[Guest American Woman]

On the contrary, IME when I've met Americans abroad, I find them almost adolescent in their desire to be liked. It's even endearing.

You sure like portraying Americans as teenagers and adolescents, eh? Methinks you may have some sort of superiority complex.

But be that as it may, I find it difficult to understand how a nation of people so endearingly desiring to be liked could have been labeled with the "ugly American" stereotype. Seems really contradictory to me.

I don't know how many Americans you've run into in your travels abroad, but being an American, I'd have to say I know more Americans than you do and have traveled with more Americans than you have. Not once have I seen any of them acting in such a was as to be "liked." I used to want to show that not all Americans are "ugly" or war mongers or Bush supporters, but now I couldn't care less. If someone is going to label me and dislike me based solely on my nationality, they are the ones with the problem and the ones deserving of criticism. Besides, I'm liked without even trying to be anyway; whether I want to be or not.

Don't let your dislike of Bush get mixed up in trying to understand the relevance of how foreigners perceive a candidate.

It's not 'my' dislike of Bush I'm referring to; it's "foreigners'" dislike of Bush-- and their projecting it onto all Americans without stopping to think that all Americans didn't vote for him.

AW, you may be surprised to learn that the dislike of Bush abroad has sadly more to do with America than it does with Bush.

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, no matter how wrong you are. I've traveled abroad for many years, to many countries, so I know of what I speak.

[August1991]

I don't know how many Americans you've run into in your travels abroad, but being an American, I'd have to say I know more Americans than you do and have traveled with more Americans than you have. Not once have I seen any of them acting in such a was as to be "liked." I used to want to show that not all Americans are "ugly" or war mongers or Bush supporters, but now I couldn't care less. If someone is going to label me and dislike me based solely on my nationality, they are the ones with the problem and the ones deserving of criticism. Besides, I'm liked without even trying to be anyway; whether I want to be or not.

I guess you've kind of made my point, AW.

When was the last time you met someone from France or India who went out of their way to explain that they disagreed with their government. (To be precise, this has happened to me a few times but invariably the people came from totalitarian regimes and then the whole point of the discussion, often stated furtively, was a simple desire to be honest for once.)

Look, I've been abroad alone, with other Canadians (French and English), with Americans, with various Europeans and so on. IME, Americans are generally affable, sociable people who like the approval of being liked. People from other countries (say, Russia or France, for example) are different. They generally don't care what people think of them. And of course I'm generalizing.

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Barack Obama has been abroad often and spent large parts of his childhood abroad. In the US itself, he's in some ways a stranger in his own country. For an American, he can handle himself well around foreigners.

In starting this thread, I was more curious to see how the European reaction will play out in terms of American votes. Al things considered, I don't think it will make any difference whatsoever. Any (minor) positives are balanced out by (minor) negatives.

Democracies tend to be concerned mostly about domestic/local issues. People with an inferiority complex tend to prefer leaders who are well received abroad. IMHO.

Edited July 26, 2008 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

I guess you've kind of made my point, AW.

When was the last time you met someone from France or India who went out of their way to explain that they disagreed with their government. (To be precise, this has happened to me a few times but invariably the people came from totalitarian regimes and then the whole point of the discussion, often stated furtively, was a simple desire to be honest for once.)

This is a routine happenstance for me.....India, Pakistan, Ukraine, Russia, South Africa, China,....even Canada. All these nationals expressed disagreement with their government and/or economic opportunities. Sometimes the Canadian ex-pats are the most critical of all.

[Guest American Woman]

I guess you've kind of made my point, AW.

When was the last time you met someone from France or India who went out of their way to explain that they disagreed with their government. (To be honest, this has happened to me a few times but invariably the people came from totalitarian regimes.)

I said "used to." And that's me, not all Americans by any means. In fact, I stood out because of it. Let's face it, if most Americans were going around trying to be liked worldwide, there wouldn't be an "ugly American" stereotype-- unless the rest of the world is psychotic.

But regarding your question about France and India, people from France and India aren't being pre-judged because of the politics of their present leader, so that would pretty much dispel any reason for them to "go out of their way to explain that they disagreed with their government." However, what you see as "going out of [my] way" isn't so "out of my way" at all since a lot of people make it quite clear what they think of Bush, and by extension, Americans.

Look, I've been abroad alone, with other Canadians (French and English), with Americans, with various Europeans and so on. IME, Americans are generally affable, sociable people who like the approval of being liked. People from other countries (say, Russia or France, for example) are different. They generally don't care what people think of them. And of course I'm generalizing.

Canadians don't care what others think of them? Is that why so many of them wear a Maple leaf to distinguish them from Americans? If Americans have been slapped with the "ugly American" stereotype, Canadians have been slapped with the "love me!" stereotype. I've never heard anyone attribute that trait to Americans before.

Barack Obama has been abroad often and spent large parts of his childhood abroad. In the US itself, he's in some ways a stranger in his own country. For an American, he can handle himself well around foreigners.

So Americans, in their eternal, endearing quest to be liked, can't handle themselves well around foreigners? My God. Could you have a more condescending attitude towards Americans? I hate to break it to you, but many Americans can handle themselves just fine around "foreigners." We don't think you all are from another planet, and I hardly think Obama is a "stranger in his own country."

In starting this thread, I was more curious to see how the European reaction will play out in terms of American votes. Al things considered, I don't think it will make any difference whatsoever. Any (minor) positives are balanced out by (minor) negatives. Democracies tend to be concerned mostly about domestic/local issues. People with an inferiority complex tend to prefer leaders who are well received abroad. IMHO.

Sure people are mostly concerned about domestic issues, but sometimes that overlaps with international issues. I hardly think it's a sign of an inferiority complex to prefer that one's leader be well received abroad as opposed to being perceived as a moron; I see that as a sign of global thinking/awareness in a world where global thinking and awareness are becoming more and more of a necessity.

Obama's trip may be more than a quest for votes, though; it may be Obama doing what he thinks is the right thing to do-- and he may be getting his foot in the door in Europe before he becomes POTUS. Not a bad idea, really. At least the British press won't have any 'Congratulations Bush from England. We are here'-- with an arrow pointing to England on the map of the world-- type headlines in reaction to his victory.

But to have had as popular a receiving as he did as merely a presidential candidate really proves how much the world's eyes are still on the United States, and how much they dislike Bush. It's incredible, really. I sure wouldn't rush out to see a candidate from any other nation, and I'm curious how many here would.

[August1991]

This is a routine happenstance for me.....India, Pakistan, Ukraine, Russia, South Africa, China,....even Canada. All these nationals expressed disagreement with their government and/or economic opportunities. Sometimes the Canadian ex-pats are the most critical of all.

Economic opportunities, yes. The way that that their society is organized, yes. But open disagreement with the politician in power? (I'll leave a Canadian/American discussion out of this example.)

Americans are proud of their country in general but some abroad will go out of their way to explain that they don't like their president. It's a curious phenomenon.

I mean, if I told anyone that I didn't like Stephen Harper, they wouldn't know what the hell I was talking about.

----

Since I seem to have hijacked a thread I started, I might as well share my usual line to Americans.

When I say that I'm from Montreal, the informed ones say "Oh, you're from Canada." And when they answer my question with, "I'm from Boston/wherever", I say "Isn't that north/south of New York?" The quizzical look is worth fifty bucks.

Americans abroad are a curious bunch.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Americans abroad are a curious bunch.

As are Canadians abroad...even the ones who swear that mapleleaf patches on backpacks will give them invulnerability from the harm that any assumed association with "America" may bring.

[Guest American Woman]

Economic opportunities, yes. The way that that their society is organized, yes. But open disagreement with the politician in power? (I'll leave a Canadian/American discussion out of this example.)

Americans are proud of their country in general but some abroad will go out of their way to explain that they don't like their president. It's a curious phenomenon.

I mean, if I told anyone that I didn't like Stephen Harper, they wouldn't know what the hell I was talking about.

For some reason you keep insisting on the "go out of their way" line of thought as if Bush isn't affecting a lot of "foreigners'" opinions of Americans right now. I mean, if you told anyone that you didn't like Stephen Harper and they wouldn't know what you were talking about it's because the rest of the world isn't exactly focusing on Stephen Harper and Canadians. Look at the reception/reaction Obama, who's just a presidential candidate, is getting right now. Canada prefers Obama too. The world has an opinion regarding our POTUS, our election. I was in Canada during the last election and even the customs officials said 'what are you doing here?' and when I said I already voted, they asked 'who do you think is going to win?' I told them, without going out of my way, that I didn't agree with Bush and that I sure hoped Kerry would win, and they were very interested in hearing what I had to say. Same thing happens everywhere. While you say people would look at you as if they didn't know what you were talking about, I get a very interested response, leading to a pretty intense discussion. Everyone wants to talk about it. Everyone has an opinion.

Since I seem to have hijacked a thread I started, I might as well share my usual line to Americans.

When I say that I'm from Montreal, the informed ones say "Oh, you're from Canada." And when they answer my question with, "I'm from Boston/wherever", I say "Isn't that north/south of New York?" The quizzical look is worth fifty bucks.

Americans abroad are a curious bunch.

You ask an off-the-wall question, people look at you oddly, and you think they're the curious ones?