The fall of Stephane Dion

[SamStranger]

As the Liberal Leadership convention drew to a close, the remaining three candidates clearly came from each point of the political triangle. On the left was Bob Rae. A former socialist democrat who followed the 'tax and spend' doctrine which nearly crippled Ontario's economy. On the right was Michael Ignatieff. This former Harvard professor supported George Bush's invasion of Iraq, and apparently didn't "lose any sleep" over Israel's war with Hezbollah. And in the middle was Stephane Dion. Clearly a moderate Liberal who voted against Same-Sex Marriage twice. The Liberal delegates made their choice: Mr. Centre, Stephane Dion.

Since becoming leader, Mr. Dion was clearly shifted him self more to the left, aligning him self with most of his caucus. A self proclaimed "hero", Stephane champions the environment and his record as environment minister. The left has always been more environmentally friendly. Though...it is note worthy to mention that Green House Gases rose by nearly 33% under the Liberals in the '90s.

Carbon Tax...?

Mr. "Hero" now believes the best way to save the environment is to impose a new tax on all Canadians, including business and industry. Already hard hit is the manufacturing sector with thousands of job loses. Could Stephane possibly believe that a new tax will help solve this crisis? And what about Seniors on fixed incomes? Surely they cannot afford another regressive tax. Then there is the lowest earners and the middle class. Already hard hit by the highest Income Tax rates in the developed world, the poor and the middle class do not need another tax forced upon them. With gasoline prices at record levels, could Canadians possibly support a new tax that will drive their heating bills through the roof?

Not a chance...

This is a stunt. This is a sham. The Liberals are planning on losing the next election. They pray that the Tories will only win another Minority Government, giving the Liberals time to head into another leadership race, where Mr. Left and Mr. Right will duke it out for the top job. The Carbon Tax will fall off the table and Stephane will be forgotten. He will grace history's pages as being one of the few Liberal leaders who did not become Prime Minister. It's a shame when a National party which dates back nearly 150 years has to resort to these games.

I thank God every day I am not a Liberal.

[SamStranger]

..............No thoughts....any one?.............................

[noahbody]

The carbon tax enables the Liberals to talk about policy rather than have the focus on their record. Most Canadians aren't smart enough to tell good policy from bad. For example, there are still some on here who think the long gun registry was a good idea.

The Liberals are now promoting the team, so if they do lose, don't count on Ray or Iggy to be the next Liberal leader. It will more likely be Manley or McKenna, who were wise enough not to run last time.

[Borg]

Who is this steve guy?

Certainly not someone who could be considered a national leader.

Borg

[gc1765]

Mr. "Hero" now believes the best way to save the environment is to impose a new tax on all Canadians, including business and industry. Already hard hit is the manufacturing sector with thousands of job loses. Could Stephane possibly believe that a new tax will help solve this crisis? And what about Seniors on fixed incomes? Surely they cannot afford another regressive tax. Then there is the lowest earners and the middle class. Already hard hit by the highest Income Tax rates in the developed world, the poor and the middle class do not need another tax forced upon them. With gasoline prices at record levels, could Canadians possibly support a new tax that will drive their heating bills through the roof?

Dion is not planning on raising taxes, he is planning on SHIFTING taxation from income & business taxes to taxes on the combustion of fossil fuels. At least try to be honest when you debate...

[Topaz]

What the Libs should do is make the polluters pay and give the money back to the citizens of this country who are always caught in the middle of these governments and corporations decisions! At least this plan would benefit the environment and even the Cons supporters too who would have their hands out as much as the rest of us.

[SamStranger]

Dion is not planning on raising taxes, he is planning on SHIFTING taxation from income & business taxes to taxes on the combustion of fossil fuels. At least try to be honest when you debate...

Wow...I can laugh at this one. I suppose you would like to defend the "tax shifting" that went on in the 1994 budget...when the GST was NOT abolished as was promised? Conservatives have dismissed Tax shifting as a complete hoax. How does it make sense to pay $100 more a month on fuel and heating, but save $15 on income tax. What a sham.

Edited June 3, 2008 by SamStranger

[gc1765]

Wow...I can laugh at this one. I suppose you would like to defend the "tax shifting" that went on in the 1994 budget...when the GST was NOT abolished as was promised?

Why don't you ask Chretien about that? It would be a pretty big stretch to blame Dion for that considering he was not even a member of parliament then. Personally, I'm glad they kept the GST and I would rather have seen Harper's government cut income taxes instead of the GST.

Conservatives have dismissed Tax shifting as a complete hoax. How does it make sense to pay $100 more a month on fuel and heating, but save $15 on income tax. What a sham.

That's some interesting math there. Every cent that the government takes in from the carbon tax is one less cent that they need to raise through income taxes, so if you want to argue that fuel & heating will be an extra $100, then that means $100 will be saved on income taxes. To suggest otherwise is simply dishonest.

[AngusThermopyle]

That's some interesting math there. Every cent that the government takes in from the carbon tax is one less cent that they need to raise through income taxes, so if you want to argue that fuel & heating will be an extra $100, then that means $100 will be saved on income taxes. To suggest otherwise is simply dishonest.

And if you believe what you just stated would actually happen, then that is simply stupid. We're talking Liberals here, the biggest bunch of organized thieves this country has ever been afflicted with.

[Wild Bill]

Why don't you ask Chretien about that? It would be a pretty big stretch to blame Dion for that considering he was not even a member of parliament then. Personally, I'm glad they kept the GST and I would rather have seen Harper's government cut income taxes instead of the GST.

That's some interesting math there. Every cent that the government takes in from the carbon tax is one less cent that they need to raise through income taxes, so if you want to argue that fuel & heating will be an extra $100, then that means $100 will be saved on income taxes. To suggest otherwise is simply dishonest.

We've all witnessed Liberal reneging on promises for decades and decades. I'm old enough to remember how the Liberals campaigned against price and wage controls against the Tories to win the election, only to have Trudeau promptly impose price and wage controls. Then there was Joe Clark's famous 18 cents a gallon tax on gas. Again, after they won the Liberals raised taxes MORE than 18 cents!

And the Chretien GST renege, free trade and a host of others.

Now, you imply that we can't blame Dion for all those years of broken promises. You're right. We can't. We have no idea if the man will keep his promises because he's never been the prime minister.

Are you seriously saying that is a good enough reason to trust him? That although his party has a bad record we should totally give the man the benefit of the doubt?

That's like saying if you have a used car dealership that has ripped people off for years we should trust their brand new salesman 'cuz HE has no bad history!

More than that however, not only is Dion a liberal but his ideas frankly sound loopy! How on earth can he shift taxes from income tax to carbon with no pain? Even if the entire plan was "revenue neutral" (which would be the first and only time that's ever happened in our history, from ANY party!) how many of us can afford to pay more for gas and home fuel all year and wait for a tax break the next April?

Only those who have always been well off could be so naive. It's like the statistician who says that if a man has one foot in the fire and one foot on the ice on the whole he should be quite comfortable!

Sorry, but I just can't agree with your reasoning. It runs counter to an entire long lifetime's experience.

Some of us voters DO have memories!

Edited June 3, 2008 by Wild Bill

[jdobbin]

Most Canadians aren't smart enough to tell good policy from bad.

More of the remarks of the right wing that we know and love.

[jdobbin]

Conservatives have dismissed Tax shifting as a complete hoax.

Sort of how they raised income taxes to lower the GST. Total hoax.

[gc1765]

Now, you imply that we can't blame Dion for all those years of broken promises. You're right. We can't. We have no idea if the man will keep his promises because he's never been the prime minister.

Are you seriously saying that is a good enough reason to trust him? That although his party has a bad record we should totally give the man the benefit of the doubt?

If that's your argument, then how can you be so sure that Harper won't impose his own carbon tax? It wouldn't be the first time he broke a promise either...

[noahbody]

More of the remarks of the right wing that we know and love.

Acutally, I look at things issue by issue. I'll never be loyal to a political party or wait for a party's position to determine my views. Strange concept, eh?

I do value problem-solving and I'm anti-corruption so the Liberal Party really isn't in my good books these days. But that's well deserved.

[Wild Bill]

If that's your argument, then how can you be so sure that Harper won't impose his own carbon tax? It wouldn't be the first time he broke a promise either...

I can't of course! Neither of us can disprove a "what if" premise! How can YOU prove to me that Dion is not really a "pod alien"! Give me a break!

All we can go by is their track record. In this instance Harper doesn't appear nearly as bad as the Liberals.

That leaves someone like me in the same position. So far all I have about Harper are some uneasy feelings. He IS a politician, after all!

With Dion and the Liberals I feel from their history I have certainties.

[Topaz]

I can't of course! Neither of us can disprove a "what if" premise! How can YOU prove to me that Dion is not really a "pod alien"! Give me a break!

All we can go by is their track record. In this instance Harper doesn't appear nearly as bad as the Liberals.

That leaves someone like me in the same position. So far all I have about Harper are some uneasy feelings. He IS a politician, after all!

With Dion and the Liberals I feel from their history I have certainties.

[/

Please oh please, explain why Harper is NOT as bad as the present day Libs? OR how about the NDP?

[Borg]

Dion is not planning on raising taxes, he is planning on SHIFTING taxation from income & business taxes to taxes on the combustion of fossil fuels. At least try to be honest when you debate...

I do not usually write in this type of language - but - your statement is such a load of bull shit.

Are your eyes brown?

That S.O.B. will NEVER produce a revenue neutral tax - if you think this is so your ayes ARE brown.

Shifting the tax burden? My ass!!

There has never been a tax that I can think of that has not DECREASED my overall income.

You are either very young, or very stupid - or truly believe that dion $^&$ - which would make you a simpleton.

Either way, trust me - dion is dangerous and will take your money - and very likely GIVE it to another country someday to buy carbon credits. Another load of bullshit!

You take MY money and GIVE it to a foreign country - and NOT spend it here?

Now ANYONE who would support that - or support dions idiotic move - especially during this time of rising fuel prices - literally DESERVES the taxation they get.

Borg

Edited June 4, 2008 by Borg

[jdobbin]

I do not usually write in this type of language - but - your statement is such a load of bull shit.

There's probably no need to personalize as you have. I'm sure each thread could degrade rapidly if ended up tit for tat.

You might not like the carbon tax but forcing polluters to reduce carbon as the Tories propose will pass the cost on to you in the same way. The main difference with the Tory plan it seems is that they are not proposing a major income tax cut.

[Borg]

There's probably no need to personalize as you have. I'm sure each thread could degrade rapidly if ended up tit for tat.

You might not like the carbon tax but forcing polluters to reduce carbon as the Tories propose will pass the cost on to you in the same way. The main difference with the Tory plan it seems is that they are not proposing a major income tax cut.

You are right and I was wrong

Blaze a mark on the wall - an admission of guilt from Borg

I am so tired of hearing how this tax will simply shift the burden - NEVER think it will do this. It will simply take more from our wallets.

Any carbon tax is nothing more than a tax grab.

Borg

[SamStranger]

Why don't you ask Chretien about that? It would be a pretty big stretch to blame Dion for that considering he was not even a member of parliament then. Personally, I'm glad they kept the GST and I would rather have seen Harper's government cut income taxes instead of the GST.

That's some interesting math there. Every cent that the government takes in from the carbon tax is one less cent that they need to raise through income taxes, so if you want to argue that fuel & heating will be an extra $100, then that means $100 will be saved on income taxes. To suggest otherwise is simply dishonest.

Wow...u are either naive or stupid. Liberals. Were talking Liberals. Liberals have never met a tax they don't like. You believe Stephane will give an Income Tax cut of $100 a month... simply absurd. Even if they gave Income Tax rebates it would never amount to that much. A Carbon tax, on the other hand, could easily cost $100 a month on your heating/hydro and gasoline.

[gc1765]

When someone has to resort to personal attacks, it is usually because they have no actual argument. I take it as a compliment

[SamStranger]

When someone has to resort to personal attacks, it is usually because they have no actual argument. I take it as a compliment

You avoiding my argument simply shows your lack of knowledge on this issue. Most experts agree there is no such thing as Revenue Neutral tax shifting. But there is something called a TAX HIKE! This is clearly a tax hike and Canadians will pass their judgment in the upcoming election.

[Borg]

You avoiding my argument simply shows your lack of knowledge on this issue. Most experts agree there is no such thing as Revenue Neutral tax shifting. But there is something called a TAX HIKE! This is clearly a tax hike and Canadians will pass their judgment in the upcoming election.

You have a higher opinion of canadians than I do.

After many years of social re-engineering they will fall for this - hook line and sinker.

I can only hope you are correct in your assumptions.

Remember - gc has challenged you to prove it - while doing nothing more than stating his own beliefs - proof goes both ways but will not be forthcoming. He will not provide because he (perhaps a she) cannot - however as a lib supporter he can always promote the *&^* libs.

As an old guy I have never seen a tax come on board that did not reduce net income - that is my proof - gc on the other hand will simply egg you - and laugh all the way.

Borg

[SamStranger]

You have a higher opinion of canadians than I do.

As an old guy I have never seen a tax come on board that did not reduce net income - that is my proof - gc on the other hand will simply egg you - and laugh all the way.

Borg

Borg, I appreciate your comments, and it is very refreshing to hear some wisdom on this board for once. Thanks for the heads up on "GC", he/she is clearly a Liberal and will support Dion's policies no matter what they are.

[gc1765]

More personal attacks? I must be doing something right

Thanks for the heads up on "GC", he/she is clearly a Liberal and will support Dion's policies no matter what they are.

Wrong, and wrong.