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Egyptian Parliament Okays Female Genital Mutilation


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I cannot imagine any sane people legalizing this, they also reduced the age limit for marriage. Where's the media outcry on this one!

Egyptian Parliament Okays Female Genital Mutilation

(IsraelNN.com) Conservatives in the Egyptian parliament have made female genital mutilation (circumcision) legal again in Egypt. The conservatives succeeded in striking several laws that had been passed by the parliament's religious Shura Council in the past. The laws canceled also include a law limiting marriage age to 18 and up, a law permitting a mother to register a child on her name and a law allowing neighbors of a family that beats its children to report the beatings to the police.

One of the parliament's members said that the law permitting a mother to register a child on her name "encourages adultery."

A Cairo appellate judge who is also the legal advisor to the Council for the Mother and Child said that the decision to strike the laws contravened international agreements signed by Egypt.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/146681

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I cannot imagine any sane people legalizing this, they also reduced the age limit for marriage. Where's the media outcry on this one!

Egyptian Parliament Okays Female Genital Mutilation

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/146681

Could someone please just clarify one thing for me? How come nobody calls male circumcision "genital mutilation"? Seems to me that mutilation is mutilation regardless of the gender of the one being mutilated. Is it because male circumcision is largely done in white societies, or does it have more to do with the religion of the ones carrying out the mutilation?

I don't think the male babies who are having part of their dick chopped off can be considered old enough to consent to what would appear to be a serious sexual assault, and genital mutilation.

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Could someone please just clarify one thing for me? How come nobody calls male circumcision "genital mutilation"? Seems to me that mutilation is mutilation regardless of the gender of the one being mutilated. Is it because male circumcision is largely done in white societies, or does it have more to do with the religion of the ones carrying out the mutilation?

I don't think the male babies who are having part of their dick chopped off can be considered old enough to consent to what would appear to be a serious sexual assault, and genital mutilation.

I was circumcized as a baby (not for religous reasons). I have never felt myself assaulted or mutilated. I doubt there are that many men who think that either.

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Could someone please just clarify one thing for me? How come nobody calls male circumcision "genital mutilation"? Seems to me that mutilation is mutilation regardless of the gender of the one being mutilated. Is it because male circumcision is largely done in white societies, or does it have more to do with the religion of the ones carrying out the mutilation?

I don't think the male babies who are having part of their dick chopped off can be considered old enough to consent to what would appear to be a serious sexual assault, and genital mutilation.

Male circumcision is for health reasons more than religious reasons...unless you'e Jewish. Female genital mutilation involves the actual removal of the labia and the clitoris...usually without the aid of pain killers. This is apparently to stop women from finding sex enjoyable. All I can say is that anyone who thinks this is a good idea would have to go through me to commit it on anyone I knew. I'd show them some mutilation of my own...

----------------------------------------------

When a 'Life of Brian' comes out with Muhammad in the lead role, directed by an Arab equivalent of Theo van Gogh, it will be a huge step forward.

---Ayaan Hirsi Ali

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Could someone please just clarify one thing for me? How come nobody calls male circumcision "genital mutilation"? Seems to me that mutilation is mutilation regardless of the gender of the one being mutilated. Is it because male circumcision is largely done in white societies, or does it have more to do with the religion of the ones carrying out the mutilation?

I don't think the male babies who are having part of their dick chopped off can be considered old enough to consent to what would appear to be a serious sexual assault, and genital mutilation.

Herein lies the problem... people whining that male circumcision is "just as bad" as cutting off the inner and outer labia, gouging out the clitoris and sewing a woman shut.

The only equivelant would be if a man's balls were cut off completely and his penis reduced to a 1 cm nubbins. And while we're at it, lets sew up the little hole at the end so urine cannot flow freely as well.

THEN you could whine about men being "mutilated".

Do you seriously think that the tradition of cutting off a foreskin is as bad as what they do to young girls?

Do you seriously think that a woman who no longer has vaginal lips or a clitoris would feel sorry for YOU whining man?

This is why discussions of female mutilation never get very far -- men come along and whine "but I am missing my parts too!!!!"

Unless you cannot piss properly and cannot have an orgasm... and get ripped open every time you have sex... your whining is utterly pathetic.

FGM graphic pics

n Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Djibouti, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Mauritania etc.

FGM is carried out with knives, scissors, scalpels, pieces of glass or razor blades

Anaesthetic and antiseptics are not generally used

Held down by older women, their legs are forced open, the clitoris, libia minor and libia major are cut off then sewn together or held together with thorns. A razor blade, penknife, piece of glass or sharp piece of tin are used for the procedure and no painkiller is used. In some cases the child is made to sit in cold water before hand to slightly numb the area. The little girl's legs are then bound for 40 days while a scar forms sealing her shut except for a small opening for urine and menstrual blood. Many die from shock and blood loss but the death is attributed to bad spirits. The psychological terror associated with the procedure leaves many in post traumatic stress and shock. Emotionally they may never recover. Marital relations can include being cut open on the wedding night which assures the male of a virgin. Childbirth is an absolute nightmare and also quite often results in death for both the child and the mother.
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Ummm... No, Drea. No, that is not the equivalent of female genital mutilation. What you are describing is as much worse than female genital mutilation as female genital mutilation is than male circumcision.

I think that since the point here would for the equivalent to try and make sex unenjoyable to men (while not preventing them from having sex) would be to kill all of the nerve endings that transmit the sensation of pleasure. That could probably be done by searing with fire until the nerve endings were all dead, which I think would be rather equally barbaric.

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Ummm... No, Drea. No, that is not the equivalent of female genital mutilation. What you are describing is as much worse than female genital mutilation as female genital mutilation is than male circumcision.

I think that since the point here would for the equivalent to try and make sex unenjoyable to men (while not preventing them from having sex) would be to kill all of the nerve endings that transmit the sensation of pleasure. That could probably be done by searing with fire until the nerve endings were all dead, which I think would be rather equally barbaric.

Ok then... shove a thin glass tube up the urethea so he can stay hard and satisfy all the women in the tribe... and when they are done with him they pull the tube out using rusty needlenosed pliers.

Of course I would never want to see a man go through this -- just trying to get the point across. (which is difficult in the face of "but I am missing my foreskin wahhhhhh!")

I hate whiners that think male circumcision is even remotely close to the brutality and horror of fgm.

stop fgm

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Guest American Woman
Could someone please just clarify one thing for me? How come nobody calls male circumcision "genital mutilation"? Seems to me that mutilation is mutilation regardless of the gender of the one being mutilated. Is it because male circumcision is largely done in white societies, or does it have more to do with the religion of the ones carrying out the mutilation?

Female Genital Mutilation is carried out by both Muslims and Christians, so religion is not the reason for the objection. Male circumcision is performed mainly for health reasons, as DoP pointed out, and while some do wrongly believe there are health benefits to female circumcision, the opposite is actually true-- it creates a lot of health problems/risks; it also increases the risks involved in giving birth:

According to [a WHO] report, mutilated women were 31% more likely to have a caesarean delivery, had a 66% higher chance of having a baby that required resuscitation and 55% more likely to have a child who died before or after birth. link

This is the link to an informative site regarding FGM. I'm including some excerpts since I think it's really important that people realize exactly what it is/what is done/why it's done. There is no comparison to male circumcision.

What is Female Genital Mutilation?

Female Genital Mutilation is the term used for removal of all or just part of the external parts of the female genitalia. There are three varieties to this procedure.

1. Sunna Circumcision - consists of the removal of the prepuce(retractable fold of skin, or hood) and /or the tip of the clitoris. Sunna in Arabic means "tradition".

2. Clitoridectomy - consists of the removal of the entire clitoris (prepuce and glands) and the removal of the adjacent labia.

3. Infibulation(pharonic circumcision)-- consists of performing a clitoridectomy (removal of all or part of the labia minora, the labia majora). This is then stitched up allowing a small hole to remain open to allow for urine and menstrual blood to flow through.

In Africa 85% of FGM cases consist of Clitoridectomy and 15% of cases consist of Infibulation. In some cases only the hood is removed.

The age the procedure is carried out varies from just after birth to some time during the first pregnancy, but most cases occur between the ages of four and eight. Most times this procedure is done with out the care of medically trained people, due to poverty and lack of medical facilities. The use of anesthesia is rare. The girl is held down by older women to prevent the girl from moving around. The instruments used by the mid-wife will vary and could include any of the following items; broken glass, a tin lid, razor blades, knives, scissors or any other sharp object. These items usually are not sterilized before or after usage. Once the genital area for removal is gone, the child is stitched up and her legs are bound for up to 40 days.

This procedure can cause various side effects on the girls which can include death. Some of the results of this procedure are serious infections, HIV, abscesses and small benign tumors, hemorrhages, shock, clitoral cysts. The long term effects may also include kidney stones, sterility, sexual dysfunction, depression, various urinary tract infections, various gynecological and obstetric problems.

In order to have sexual intercourse the women have to be opened up in some fashion and in some cases cutting is necessary. After child birth some women are re-infibulated to make them (tight) for their husbands.

Male pleasure seems to be a big motivation regarding the procedure, as well as 'chastity.'

Edited by American Woman
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Female Genital Mutilation is carried out by both Muslims and Christians, so religion is not the reason for the objection.

I was surprised to read this is practiced by Christians as well, could you provide some information about which Christian groups are involved?

They, of course would be wrong to do this, and there is no mention in the Bible of it as there is of male circumcision. I'm assuming such Christian groups would be in areas of the world where FGM is a cultural norm.

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Guest American Woman
I was surprised to read this is practiced by Christians as well, could you provide some information about which Christian groups are involved?

They, of course would be wrong to do this, and there is no mention in the Bible of it as there is of male circumcision. I'm assuming such Christian groups would be in areas of the world where FGM is a cultural norm.

It seems as if it may be more of a cultural custom than a religion one.

FGM has been a social custom in Northern Africa for millennia. Many people link FGM with the religion of Islam. Actually, it is a social custom that is practiced by Animists, Christians, and Muslims in those countries where FGM is common. There are many Muslim countries in which the mutilation is essentially unknown, including Algeria, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

link

Edited by American Woman
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What I think is most surprising is not that people can be so cruel, but that people would have a custom that you would think it would be obvious causes huge problems for childbearing. I mean, how many cultures out there view the death of (wanted) wives and children during childbirth as a good thing? I would be incredibly surprised if the answer was higher than none.

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Obviously the "pleasure" of the male and the "control" of the female are the ultimate goals for fgm; both "reasons" far outweigh the lives of women and children in the minds of these barbarians.

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You wrote:

...how many cultures out there view the death of (wanted) wives and children during childbirth as a good thing?

and I responded by saying that the cultures that practice fgm obviously believe that controlling the female's sexuality (and enhancing the man's pleasure) are more important than the lives of the women and children who die as a direct result of fgm.

edited to add:

Perhaps the husband justfies the barbaric pratice "my wife and child died, but at least she never fooled around on me, I am a lucky man... is my next wife ready yet?

A culture that would practice fgm has no value of human life to begin with so they would not care about the women and children. It's all about control - they control their women by cutting off their pleasure centres and making sex a cruel, painful act.

Edited by Drea
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I cannot imagine any sane people legalizing this, they also reduced the age limit for marriage. Where's the media outcry on this one!

Egyptian Parliament Okays Female Genital Mutilation

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/146681

What happens in another coutry may be disgusting to us - however - this is a country that makes their own rules.

Not much one can do about it other than complain.

Be glad you live where you do.

And life goes on.

Borg

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Guest American Woman
What happens in another coutry may be disgusting to us - however - this is a country that makes their own rules.

Not much one can do about it other than complain.

Be glad you live where you do.

And life goes on.

Borg

Actually, there are people who do more than complain, and thank God for that because that's how change comes about. But believe me, I am so thankful I live where I do; especially as a woman, and a woman who has daughters. Life isn't fair, there's no doubt about that. I wonder sometimes why I got so lucky.

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Guest American Woman
What I think is most surprising is not that people can be so cruel, but that people would have a custom that you would think it would be obvious causes huge problems for childbearing. I mean, how many cultures out there view the death of (wanted) wives and children during childbirth as a good thing? I would be incredibly surprised if the answer was higher than none.

Every culture doesn't share the same values we do. Some see girls as disposable and I would imagine women fall into that same category. Lose one, there's another to give pleasure. So I'm betting the answer would be higher than none; how much higher would be really interesting to find out.

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Actually, there are people who do more than complain, and thank God for that because that's how change comes about. But believe me, I am so thankful I live where I do; especially as a woman, and a woman who has daughters. Life isn't fair, there's no doubt about that. I wonder sometimes why I got so lucky.

Tell Borg that human rigthts are an international issue. In the old days prior jet travel and when the world was larger. It did not really matter what went on else where. Out of sight and out of mind. The difference now is that those from nations where chopping off a clitoris and surrounding natural tissue - will eventually come here. So anyone that says it is not our buisness is wrong..and this buisness about saying "life is not fair" are usually people who are not fair to anyone themselves...kind of a barbaric justification attitude if you ask me. I have witnessed on film the mutiltaion of a young girl in the manner we are speaking of..it's stupid and stupidy as I said before is the sister of evil.

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I wonder sometimes why I got so lucky.

Personally I don't believe in luck, I believe in probability and the results of cause and effect. It's just my opinion but if you find you are happy and satisfied with your life and all the various aspects of it then it is because of your actions and the choices you made, the attitude you developed, not luck.

The whole precept of comparing FGM to male circumcission is flawed and false from the onset. There is no comparison, the entire practise is barbaric and cruel on several levels. It's just my opinion but I believe the only counter to these practises is knowledge, unfortunately the spread of knowledge and the enlightenment that comes with it are painfully slow.

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Personally I don't believe in luck, I believe in probability and the results of cause and effect. It's just my opinion but if you find you are happy and satisfied with your life and all the various aspects of it then it is because of your actions and the choices you made, the attitude you developed, not luck.

The whole precept of comparing FGM to male circumcission is flawed and false from the onset. There is no comparison, the entire practise is barbaric and cruel on several levels. It's just my opinion but I believe the only counter to these practises is knowledge, unfortunately the spread of knowledge and the enlightenment that comes with it are painfully slow.

Imagine that there is some coo coo regligous right that attempts to curb gluttony. Then they deal with it by peeling away the layer of skin on the tounge that has the taste buds..It's un-natural..and these fools who attempt to assist GOD as if his creations are imperfect and are in need of surgery are infidels..Here is a good point as far as attitude...Extremists who kill in the name of the ALMIGHTY..are in effect stating that God is weak and not almighty and needs there help..at least real Christianity and Platoism is base in logic..it is not logical to damage sexual organs in a vain attempt to set up man made morality.

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See, given the choice between believing that something that seems obvious to us is in fact not so obvious to the people that practice this and that all the people that practice this are just evil (which seems to be what has been implied), I am inclined to go with the uneducated blindness angle. Oleg Bach is right at least in pointing out the relationship between stupidity and evil in these kind of situations.

If these tribes really thought that women and children were completely disposable, they would have died off a long time ago. What is more likely is that whatever warped sense of right or " honour " causes them to keep this and a few other horrific social practices going without doing so much more that they just die off in a couple of generations (which is what would happen if they did not care about having healthy descendants, like you two suggest). I mean, it is the women that actually perform the " operations " ! Do they callously disregard the lives and health of their own children? No, they do it is because some rather self-defeating cultural norms have been passed down from generation to generation. It's a tragic cycle, one that has to be broken, one that can be broken.

If it really was just that the people were evil, you might as well throw the towel in now because even if you stop female genital mutilation they will still be evil. In the long run, it doesn't really matter if it is legal or illegal. Being illegal obviously didn't stop it before. The only way to beat it is bottom up, village to village, breaking the tradition in people, not in law.

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Guest American Woman
Personally I don't believe in luck, I believe in probability and the results of cause and effect. It's just my opinion but if you find you are happy and satisfied with your life and all the various aspects of it then it is because of your actions and the choices you made, the attitude you developed, not luck.

There's definitely truth to what you say, actually a whole lotta truth; but I also believe that the luck of being born where one is born does enter into it. Also, the family one is born into.

The whole precept of comparing FGM to male circumcission is flawed and false from the onset. There is no comparison, the entire practise is barbaric and cruel on several levels. It's just my opinion but I believe the only counter to these practises is knowledge, unfortunately the spread of knowledge and the enlightenment that comes with it are painfully slow.

I agree with you completely. It's not just the spread of knowledge that's slow, though; it's also acceptance of that knowledge. It's amazing to me how many women don't want to stop the practice; they believe it will bring shame, make their daughters 'unmarriageable.'

Edited by American Woman
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See, given the choice between believing that something that seems obvious to us is in fact not so obvious to the people that practice this and that all the people that practice this are just evil (which seems to be what has been implied), I am inclined to go with the uneducated blindness angle. Oleg Bach is right at least in pointing out the relationship between stupidity and evil in these kind of situations.

If these tribes really thought that women and children were completely disposable, they would have died off a long time ago. What is more likely is that whatever warped sense of right or " honour " causes them to keep this and a few other horrific social practices going without doing so much more that they just die off in a couple of generations (which is what would happen if they did not care about having healthy descendants, like you two suggest). I mean, it is the women that actually perform the " operations " ! Do they callously disregard the lives and health of their own children? No, they do it is because some rather self-defeating cultural norms have been passed down from generation to generation. It's a tragic cycle, one that has to be broken, one that can be broken.

If it really was just that the people were evil, you might as well throw the towel in now because even if you stop female genital mutilation they will still be evil. In the long run, it doesn't really matter if it is legal or illegal. Being illegal obviously didn't stop it before. The only way to beat it is bottom up, village to village, breaking the tradition in people, not in law.

It all goes back to the woman as the powerful and seductive temptress. This concept clearly states that the men in these culltures are afraid of woman and are to weak to hold their own in their primitive society and religion. Also it goes back to the Adam eating the apple...hate to break it to you it was his decision not Eves..but the weakling male insists on blaming woman for his own weakness. Other semetic tribes such as the Jews have similar fears of females..I asked an Israel why is it that if the mother is a Jew then the children are deamed Jews? He revealed to me that if the father was a Jew..and the mother was not - the father assumed that the woman might be a whore and he could not guarentee that the child was his..where as if the mother is Jewish.."at least we are sure the kid is at least half Jewish...I would definitely say that this contempt for females is cultural cowardice on the part of the male..as is female circumcision.

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Herein lies the problem... people whining that male circumcision is "just as bad" as cutting off the inner and outer labia, gouging out the clitoris and sewing a woman shut.

The only equivelant would be if a man's balls were cut off completely and his penis reduced to a 1 cm nubbins. And while we're at it, lets sew up the little hole at the end so urine cannot flow freely as well.

THEN you could whine about men being "mutilated".

Do you seriously think that the tradition of cutting off a foreskin is as bad as what they do to young girls?

Do you seriously think that a woman who no longer has vaginal lips or a clitoris would feel sorry for YOU whining man?

This is why discussions of female mutilation never get very far -- men come along and whine "but I am missing my parts too!!!!"

Unless you cannot piss properly and cannot have an orgasm... and get ripped open every time you have sex... your whining is utterly pathetic.

FGM graphic pics`

You are really out there aren't you? You are exactly the type to accuse men of being mysogenists meanwhile it is quite obvious from that little outburst of yours that you are the one with an irrational hatred of men.

Nowhere did I equate the pain and long term damage caused by "female genital mutilation", or FGM as you call it, to what men experience as a result of being circumcised, and I certainly am not "whining" about being mutilated because I am not. Not that my personal state of wholeness, has any relevance to the conversation, but since in your emotional outburst you suggest that I am feeling sorry for myself, I feel it necessary to to point out that is absolutely ridiculous.

I am also not saying male circumcision can have no benefits or that some men might not be happy with it. I was simply pointing out the FACT that male circumcision is genital mutilation by definition. It may be socially acceptable genital mutilation in some areas of the world but it is nonetheless genital mutilation. Getting your ears pierced is also ear mutilation. Please don't rant at me for now comparing getting your ears pierced to having your clit mutilated because I never did that either. I'm not even against ear mutilation as long as the person getting pierced has consented to it. In fact I have several piercings myself.

Any surgical procedures that alter the body in any way should only be performed on people who have consented to the procedure, period. That includes genital mutilation of males as well as females. If a person wants to be circumsized when they are old enough to decide for themselves then by all means they should be free to have the procedure, but if it is not medically NECESSARY like heart surgery, etc then it should be elective and paid for by the patient, not the taxpayer.

I really think you were way out of line with this tirade against me, and certainly see why some others on this forum pretty much dismiss everything you say.

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