My solution for the Israeli-Palestinian solution

[eyeball]

Are you hinting at Mossadeq as an example?

We, the west, certainly has been messing about for while there, pouring water in the sandbox and creating nothing but muck and mud.

Bad all round.

Yes, yes and yes.

I bet there's still some good seeds deep down in all that muck and mud though, we just have to get out of the way. We would be wise to recall that when left to their own, seeds can eventually even push concrete out of the way.

[buffycat]

Your name calling tells me where you are coming from. The rulers of Jordan have been Israel's best friends in the Arab World. They have absorbed much of your biggest problem at great cost. They have stood behind their word. They have tried to tell you what you simply will not hear. You have to trust somebody if you want peace.

Do you honestly think that you can have a monoideoligical state in a pluralistic world? Why can you not see that pluralism will be Israel's strength? Who else in the Middle East can offer this bridge between two worlds? How can you watch Israel do business with so many cultures all over the world and insist that it be monoideoligical itself?

Your great opportunity is slipping away. It is time you understood your true friends are not going to stand and tell you that your new clothes look so absolutely splendid.

Wow, wow wow!

You are so right, Israel missed a wonderful opportunity - one that would have held the best values of Judaism up for the world to see - yet she missed this chance not once - but a myriad of times.

This is sad for not only those who are currently brutally occupied - but also every Israeli - every Jew - for these atrocities are being committed in their names.

You said all of that beautifully - something I have mourned for a long time now.

Thanks HisSelf.

[buffycat]

Yes, yes and yes.

I bet there's still some good seeds deep down in all that muck and mud though, we just have to get out of the way. We would be wise to recall that when left to their own, seeds can eventually even push concrete out of the way.

Another really good post! Thanks eyeball - for bringing some evennandedness and rationall to these difficult conversations.

And I like this so much I will re-quote:

We would be wise to recall that when left to their own, seeds can eventually even push concrete out of the way.

Sometimes one must let plants grow where they like it!

(reason for edt: spelling!! )

Edited May 13, 2008 by buffycat

[M.Dancer]

Are you hinting at Mossadeq as an example?

Bad all round.

I doubt he is, after all with Eyeball's preferences I'm sure he would want to stay well away from neo fascist anti democratic thugs like mossadeq.

[buffycat]

I doubt he is, after all with Eyeball's preferences I'm sure he would want to stay well away from neo fascist anti democratic thugs like mossadeq.

Can you even read Dancing boy??

eyeball said:

Yes, yes and yes.

I bet there's still some good seeds deep down in all that muck and mud though, we just have to get out of the way. We would be wise to recall that when left to their own, seeds can eventually even push concrete out of the way.

edited to add:

Bugger off Morris... if you cannot comment on the topic of the thread then kindly please piss off.

Edited May 13, 2008 by buffycat

[oreodontist]

My solution for North America is to merge Canada, the USA and Mexico. The Queen can be the Constitutional monarch and the official language can be Spanish on Mondays, English on Tuesdays, etc. French will the official language on Full Moons. On the national holiday....June 3 (an averging out of July 1st, July 4th and May 5th) the new flag featuring a hockey stick, a football and a soccer ball will be raised.....all citizens will sing Kumbaya , the new official anthem (in the language of that day) and play fun games like pin the tail on the donkey and three-legged races.... everyone wins and everyone gets a prize.

Not sure about the name of the currency yet but it can feature the Queen wearing a sombrero and holding a baseball bat on one side and three little children holding hands on the other.

Edited May 14, 2008 by oreodontist

[M.Dancer]

Can you even read Dancing boy??

edited to add:

Bugger off Morris... if you cannot comment on the topic of the thread then kindly please piss off.

I did comment, you stunned cow, I commented on your bleeding comment. I terribly sorry if your heros happen to be murdererous thugs, if you were a tad smarter than a fence post or at least knew something on the subject other than the drivel you parrot you would choose them better.

On the otherhand...given the ethics of the extreme left, probably not,

Edited May 14, 2008 by M.Dancer

[buffycat]

I did comment, you stunned cow, I commented on your bleeding comment. I terribly sorry if your heros happen to be murdererous thugs, if you were a tad smarter than a fence post or at least knew something on the subject other than the drivel you parrot you would choose them better.

On the otherhand...given the ethics of the extreme left, probably not,

Thank you, direct insults to another forum member are not allowed.

However, thank you so much for offering your ever so insightful knowledge for us all to absorb!! or is adsorb??

[M.Dancer]

Thank you, direct insults to another forum member are not allowed.

However, thank you so much for offering your ever so insightful knowledge for us all to absorb!! or is adsorb??

I apologise to fence posts and stunned cows everywhere who might be offended by the comparison.

[eyeball]

I doubt he is, after all with Eyeball's preferences I'm sure he would want to stay well away from neo fascist anti democratic thugs like mossadeq.

The neutrality of this article is disputed desperately increasingly disputed it seems given the ferocious editing and discussion on this wiki source, somebody obviously feels they have a lot to lose or gain.

This is where we left off the last time you slandered and disparaged the evolution of Muslim democracy.

As for other neo fascist anti democratic thugs, these terms also characterize the fathers of our own democracies, especially as far as women, coloured and aboriginal people in many Western countries including our own were concerned. Democracy in Mosaddeq's time was obviously a more primitive thing compared to today's standards but so was much of the West's incuding our own when they were struggling to emerge. You could have said the same disparaging things about Thomas Jefferson or Sir John A. MacDonald and they would be just as true or just as false.

Edited May 14, 2008 by eyeball

[eyeball]

The point stands, that real democracy did come to the Muslim world, all on its own, and when it did the West immediately went in...and overthrew it.

The only solution the West can possibly contribute towards peace and democracy in the ME is to get out and leave it to its own devices.

[M.Dancer]

The point stands, that real democracy did come to the Muslim world, all on its own, and when it did the West immediately went in...and overthrew it.

.

Oh come on...you saw the contemporary article that covered the shame referendum......no anonymous vote..gangs intimidating the opposition...assininations....about as democratic as Hitler's germany.

These facts are not contested.

It amazes me the moral gymnastics some will use......but hey, we already know you prefer totalitarian methods over democracy.

[M.Dancer]

Democracy in Mosaddeq's time was obviously a more primitive thing compared to today's standards but so was much of the West's incuding our own when they were struggling to emerge. You could have said the same disparaging things about Thomas Jefferson or Sir John A. MacDonald and they would be just as true or just as false.

Nice try but no dice. By the standards of the day Mossadeq was a ruthless thug who had no interest in democracy other than for cosmetic reasons.

[eyeball]

...you saw the contemporary article that covered the shame referendum...

These facts are not contested.

No I didn't. What is a shame referendum?

[eyeball]

It amazes me the moral gymnastics some will use......but hey, we already know you prefer totalitarian methods over democracy.

Cite please.

[buffycat]

Cite please.

Don't hold your breath.

Or worse - he'll use Wiki...

[M.Dancer]

Cite please.

What? you don'tr eve remember your own policies you spout?

Will forcing companies to have board members imposed on them be enough?

How about forcing companies to sell at a price of your likeing?

Please don't play dumb.

[M.Dancer]

Don't hold your breath.

Wiki? You mean like eyeball did a few posts back....

[Argus]

So, you are saying that it is a choice between an oppressive regime that the people did not ask for and cannot get rid of, and an oppressive regime that the people did ask for and can vote out of power in a couple of years (if this really is democracy we are talking about)? What exactly is so superior about the first option from the perspective of the people being oppressed?

What is superior about either? Why get all worked up at the hope of democracy when all it will do is put in place a different group of dictators who will shoot you for daring to contradict or oppose them?

[Argus]

I must concur with Norman Finkelstein on this - every international body agrees on how to settle the two state situation - withdrawl from the occupied territories, a right of return for those who want it - otherwise reparations, and of course reparations for those whose lands and ownings were pilfered.

Does that include reparations for the half milliion Jews expelled from the Arab world? If so, how about the Arab world simply pay that to the quarter million Arabs driven out of Israel and call it even?

Complete control over their own borders, recognition granted to the new state - no matter what government they people elect democratically

Like Robert Mugabe, you mean? A triumphant new "democracy" which will have one president for life, then devolve into chaos? How do you propose this Palestinian state function without resources or industry?

[Argus]

This is where we left off the last time you slandered and disparaged the evolution of Muslim democracy.

What evolution? There is no Muslim democracy, and what's worse, little enthusiasm for democracy in most Muslim states. Every poll shows Muslims want theocracies with Sharia law. Even in the UK, home to arguably the best educated and sophisticated Muslims around, 40% said they wanted Sharia law.

The totals are quite a bit higher in places like Pakistan and Palestine.

[M.Dancer]

No I didn't. What is a shame referendum?

Yes you did. You commented on it and pooh poohed it called it a smear becuase Time had the audacity to report uembarrassing facts about your beloved fascist hero

Here is the article

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...promoid=googlep

here is your comment on it.

Hey Morris, I find it particularly interesting your Time magazine smear of Mohammed Mossadegh occured two days before the CIA overthrew him.

Having a short attention span is crucial for the extreme left...helps a lot to forget Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and Iranian fascists...

[M.Dancer]

This is the Balck Shirt Democracy that Eyeball et al feel so nostalgic about.

Mossadegh scrupulously ordered up all the paraphernalia: voting tents, police guards, army tanks. In fact, he ordered a double set of everything—one for Teheran's vast Sepah Square, another for Baharestan Square. Anyone voting yes could do so "secretly" in Sepah Square, but to vote no, one had to go to Baharestan. Government employees were let off work and in mobs descended on Sepah Square. So did other mobs assembled by the outlawed Tudeh Communist Party, which also would like to keep Parliament dissolved. In the happy crush, people did not have to show their identity cards or have their hands smeared with indelible ink. Many voted three or four times.

With those conditions applied here, Eyeball might have even got proportional representation through....

[Oleg Bach]

This is the Balck Shirt Democracy that Eyeball et al feel so nostalgic about.

With those conditions applied here, Eyeball might have even got proportional representation through....

Solution ? The real solution to this issue is money. We have two familes living side by side..although they are removed and estranged by time- The Palistinians and the Jews are of the same old heritage..but the situation is akin to slavery - One brother enslaved the other and there is great resentment..

Put it this way in numbers. If you send a billion in aid to Israel...and one million to Palistine..it's like giving one brother 50 bucks and the other 5 cents...what do you expect to happen with such an arrangement..slavery of course..The Israeli side of the family become the masters and the employers and the Palistinians become the servants at a minimum rate..Just as China is a massive slave labour camp for the west - the cordoned of area that is Palistine is a slave labour camp in a state of rebellion. The only solution is to send as much aid to Palistine as we to to Israel...it's that simple..If you give them enough - then they will have better things to do than toss rocks and support extremist opportunist groups...BUT because everyone is so god damn cheap they want a solution but they do not want to pay for that solution ---it's about money..

Perfect parallel is how New York City got rid of the homeless problem - they tossed a billion dollars at the problem and the problem is sloved...Here in Toronto they justify the homeless situation with the delluded liberal phrase " The homeless are mentally ill" as if their sickness brought on the poverty...this is not the fact - it is poverty the creates mental illness...as for the Palistine..it is also subjugation and poverty that has brought about the insantity seen in the populace...better dish out the cash folks or this situation of voilence and sadness will plauge us for the next century...stop being so damned cheap!

[eyeball]

What? you don'tr eve remember your own policies you spout?

Will forcing companies to have board members imposed on them be enough?

Nice try but that's your intepretation. Corporations are governed by their charters, these charters should be granted by the authorities that actually live in the region a corporation operates. These authorities should be democratically elected by the people who also live in that region. If these people want corporate charters to be granted on the condition that boards of directors include local people representating things like labour or the environment then they should. If the corporations don't like these terms they're free to move somewhere else.

No authoritariansim here.

How about forcing companies to sell at a price of your likeing?

You mean a price of your liking. Its a terrible practice. I understand corporations like Walmart and Monsanto force their suppliers to do this all the time. It goes without saying this practice has a negative impact on both human communities and the environment. I don't expect some distant shareholder or board of director to concern themselves with this which is why having board members from the local population is a good thing.