Harper goes to the ball

[Argus]

Thank you. You are exactly right. It is discrimination on the basis of belief.

I'm not allowed to discriminate against morons?

[Argus]

When its done on the basis of partisan ideology its no different than crapping in your hand and throwing it at someone. Stephan Harper is behaving more like a chimpanzee in a monkey house than a Prime Minister. His slandering of the opposition should be investigated by the CHRC.

Steven Harper could blow his nose and people like you would be jumping up and down, screaming and wailing and gnashing your teeth and moaning about how evil he is.

[Argus]

Slandering someone with being anti-semitic for simply questioning Canada's position towards Israel is no different than racism, IMO.

Which simply goes to show that your command of the English language is as poor as your grasp of political issues.

[Argus]

I am addressing this to Argus, who is participating in this thread.

The big mistake that the Zionists made, and that Israel continues to make, is that the party line has always been (Ben Gurion on down) 'Get the hell out of here. This is OUR land.'

If the Zionists had come and said "We have this problem, see (doing Bogart here). We are suffering persecution and we need a place to call our own.' they might have had a better chance. The Arabs were yearning for just the same thing after years of suffering under the Turks. This is why Weitzmann was able to talk turkey (lol) with Feisal. They were talking the same language.

If the Zionists had said to the Arabs... "We know a lot. We can tell you how to build cities, how to cure people, how to make your business more efficient." If they had gone on to hire Arabs, school their children, buy from their businesses, invite them into the political process.... would it have been better? You bet it would.

I am completely uninterested in discussing the origins of the current mess in the middle east. Unless you've invented a time machine they are COMPLETELY unimportant. What is, IS.

And right now you have Palestinians who are reared from birth to hate Jews. And given the hatred and attacks on Israel from the Arab world I doubt there are many Israelis who don't hate Palestinians too. There is no chance, none, that they can live together in peace, ever. So the idea of Palestinians returning to live in the Israel that their fathers and grandfathers inhabited is a none starter.

Israel can and should pull out of all the occupied territories, then line up artillery pieces wheel to wheel and every time the Palestinians launch a rocket across the border take out everything within a square mile of the launch point. Eventually the Palestinians will either stop or there'll be no Palestinians.

[Kitchener]

From the Vancouver Sun article:

Rae suggested Harper's remarks were a crass ploy for Jewish voters.

Gosh, you think?

[eyeball]

So why are so many in the Left so willing to excuse, if not condone the most vile and brutal of terrorist activities by Arabs?

I certainly don't condone terrorism but I do understand why it happens. I think your problem with the left is that they are the left. That's all.

As for the money that's involved in pursuing policy's that are weighted in Israel's favour I think it can be chalked up to stock portfolio's that are invested in the military-industrial complex of industries making a killing off all the...killing. I think it goes without saying that making a killing is something the right strongly identifies with. Money is money, whether its Jewish or atheist or Catholic has little if anything to do with it.

Its pretty obvious why the left and right are always at such odds over this issue. Getting stinking rich has always been an anti-social activity. If there is anyone who is motivated to condone violence and killing its the people who are getting rich as a result and I doubt very much if your average lefty is invested in military stocks.

[HisSelf]

No, your anti-Semitic postings are drivel. Is English a second language to you?

Are half the world's media in Luxembourg breathlessly churning out stories every time someone stubs their toe? Does the United Nations spend most of its time agonizing about Luxembourg? Do Leftist bigots in Canada endlessly whine about the evils of Luxembourg?

Why the hell do you care that Harper spoke at a celebration of Israel? Do you hate Jews that much?

Anna Livia Plurabelle. Google that, Argus. My English be damned.

No, half the world's media is not in Luxembourg; that is exactly the point.

[HisSelf]

Israel can and should pull out of all the occupied territories....

If you are including the surrender of all illegal settlements, then maybe we are not so different after all.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Its pretty obvious why the left and right are always at such odds over this issue. Getting stinking rich has always been an anti-social activity. If there is anyone who is motivated to condone violence and killing its the people who are getting rich as a result and I doubt very much if your average lefty is invested in military stocks.

Oh but they are so invested, both directly and indirectly, because in the end, they aren't really all that much different from the "right" when it comes to money and riches.

[kuzadd]

I was hoping this would turn into a discussion of how Canada's policy towards the Middle East is influenced by big money, but of course Argus, who is from Hillary Clinton's (we will blow Iran to smithereens if it attacks Israel) state (oh wait, wasn't that Arkansas?) came and dropped the anti-semitism bomb by referencing Hitler.

And so it goes. All too often, it seems.

it's not just big money, of course that helps.

It is influenced by our compliance with US/Israeli goals in the ME.

Since the US and Israel have a goal of running as much of the middle east (controling the oil and the access of the oil, the water and of course land grabbing )as possible, for their own gain, mutual and otherwise.

And Canada is the partner to this ...... Israel and the US's "enemy" must now be our enemy.

The people of Canada must be brought on board, to believe such utter drivel, so the agenda can go forward.

[HisSelf]

it's not just big money, of course that helps.

It is influenced by our compliance with US/Israeli goals in the ME.

Since the US and Israel have a goal of running as much of the middle east (controling the oil and the access of the oil, the water and of course land grabbing )as possible, for their own gain, mutual and otherwise.

And Canada is the partner to this ...... Israel and the US's "enemy" must now be our enemy.

The people of Canada must be brought on board, to believe such utter drivel, so the agenda can go forward.

What agenda? International human rights? The Geneva Conventions? The International Court in the Hague?

What should we do if our resources are coveted by somebody with a big army and a convincing media presence? No doubt there will be some who will think I am talking about the US, but China is now ascendent. And Russia.

If there is not an international court to adjudicate matters of law, we will be forever at the mercy of the same kind of people who illegally took ownership of the Russian oil industry, who are now running Burma and Zimbabwe, and who invaded Iraq on a whim and a prayer. Do you really want a guy like Dick Cheney running your country? That's what you seem to expect the Iraquis to do.

[bush_cheney2004]

....The people of Canada must be brought on board, to believe such utter drivel, so the agenda can go forward.

They're already on board...Canadian mining interests are quietly strip raping all over the world. The Americans even tossed PM Martin a bone in Iraq after the whining got too loud.

Edited May 11, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[HisSelf]

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: bush_cheney2004.

· View this post

· Un-ignore bush_cheney2004

[Argus]

If you are including the surrender of all illegal settlements, then maybe we are not so different after all.

There is only one way the mess in and around Israel will ever come to anything like a good end. That is for Israel to completely vacate Gaza and the West Bank, for Egypt to absorb Gaza, and Jordan to absorb the West Bank (that part they haven't already absorbed, that is).

Palestine, as presently constituted (what remains outside Israel) would be an economic basket case if it ever achieved independence. It has no resources, no infrastructure, and not enough land or water. It would be poverty stricken, politically unstable, require ongoing donations of food and money, and continue to be a source of terrorism towards Israel. There is no sense whatsoever in it ever becoming an independent nation.

[HisSelf]

There is only one way the mess in and around Israel will ever come to anything like a good end. That is for Israel to completely vacate Gaza and the West Bank, for Egypt to absorb Gaza, and Jordan to absorb the West Bank (that part they haven't already absorbed, that is).

Palestine, as presently constituted (what remains outside Israel) would be an economic basket case if it ever achieved independence. It has no resources, no infrastructure, and not enough land or water. It would be poverty stricken, politically unstable, require ongoing donations of food and money, and continue to be a source of terrorism towards Israel. There is no sense whatsoever in it ever becoming an independent nation.

There was a time when you could have made the saem basket case argument for Israel.

Jordan may indeed be able to absorb the West Bank, and it may be motivated to do so were Israel to vacate back to the 1966 borders, but it certainly has to be given a better deal than the current settlement mosaic. Jordan has access to the sea, but it has a lot of challenges, water rights for one, and it is a Hashemite Kingdom that would be asked to swallow the detritus of Israel's birth. This is a very thorny problem for Jordan - it has always been a Bedouin State, after all - and it needs to have a prize to make it worthwhile. What are you offering as a prize? Joint ownership of Jerusalem might work. You've got to trust somebody, and Israel might very well be wise to trust Jordan. Jordan has been the best friend Israel has had in the Arab world, right from the pre-1948 war. Abdullah, like Feisal, was willing to deal with Israel, when nobody else would. Israel has a very good friend in Jordan.

Gaza is a very different case. These people have been screwed miserably - which is why they are willing to suffer so much to give Israel the finger - and I doubt they are going to want to become a minor province of Egypt. Gaza is going to be a real challenge, and if Israel is not careful, it will end up as a province of Syria or Iran, if it isn't already.

Gaza is

[kuzadd]

What agenda? International human rights? The Geneva Conventions? The International Court in the Hague?

What should we do if our resources are coveted by somebody with a big army and a convincing media presence? No doubt there will be some who will think I am talking about the US, but China is now ascendent. And Russia.

If there is not an international court to adjudicate matters of law, we will be forever at the mercy of the same kind of people who illegally took ownership of the Russian oil industry, who are now running Burma and Zimbabwe, and who invaded Iraq on a whim and a prayer. Do you really want a guy like Dick Cheney running your country? That's what you seem to expect the Iraquis to do.

hisself, since you've lost me completely??

What does human rights , or the geneva conventions have to with what you were speaking of?

BTW: our resources are already "coveted" by somebody with a big army and a convincing media presence.

See: FTA, NAFTA

I don't think Russia is having any energy issues at this time.

China different story.

[Argus]

There was a time when you could have made the saem basket case argument for Israel

When?

Jordan may indeed be able to absorb the West Bank, and it may be motivated to do so were Israel to vacate back to the 1966 borders, but it certainly has to be given a better deal than the current settlement mosaic. Jordan has access to the sea, but it has a lot of challenges, water rights for one, and it is a Hashemite Kingdom that would be asked to swallow the detritus of Israel's birth.

There is no real ethnic, religious, cultural, racial or linguistic difference between the "Palestinians" and the "Jordanians". Jordan was a part of Palestine, after all, before the English created it, and it snapped off a large chunk of the West Bank years ago, part of what was to be "Palestine". It can certainly take the rest, and I'm all for bribing them to do it with whatever billions are considered sufficient. They will never get joint ownership of Jerusalem so it's pointless to discuss it.

Gaza is a very different case. These people have been screwed miserably - which is why they are willing to suffer so much to give Israel the finger - and I doubt they are going to want to become a minor province of Egypt. Gaza is going to be a real challenge, and if Israel is not careful, it will end up as a province of Syria or Iran, if it isn't already.

Gaza is

We're talking about a million and a half people. They ARE nothing but a minor province, and that's all they've ever been. That's all Palestine itself has ever been, and there is nothing unique about the "Palestinians" which justifies them having a separate nation now anyway. It'd be like the people of Michigan declaring they're entirely different from other Americans and must have their own state. Although at least they have the population, resources and industry to sustain one.

[Shakeyhands]

Harper has delivered the goods. The CBC is reporting today that he went on a radio talk show while in Toronto for the 60th birthday bash and said that there are anti-semitic elements in Parliament who are questionning his policy on Israel, and that criticism of Israel is often a thinly-veiled form of anti-semitism. This is also being reported in the Vancouver Sun along with comments by Bob Rae, who got up in the house on Friday and called on Harper to name those anti-semites. Don't hold your breath, Bob.

I'm somewhat surprised we haven't seen a thread on this topic. I for one, would like to know who these antisemites are in Parliament.

I sure hope Harper will let us know who these characters are s o we can make sure they aren't re-elected.

[M.Dancer]

With apologies to Sir Paul.

Give Gaza back to the 'Gyptian

Dont make them have to take it away

Give Gaza back to the 'Gyptians

Make Gaza Egyptian today

Israel you are tremendous

And nobody knows like me

But really what are you doin

In the land by the sea

Tell me how would you like it

If on your way to work

You were stopped by "gyptian soliders

Would you lie down do nothing

Would you give in, or go berserk

Give Gaza back to the 'Gyptians

Dont make them have to take it away

Give Gaza back to the 'Gyptians

Make Gaza Egyptian today

Eratz Israel and all the people

Say that all people must be free

Meanwhile back in Gaza

There's a man who looks like me

And he dreams of God and country

And he's feeling really bad

And he's sitting in a prison

Should he lie down do nothing

Should give in or go mad

Give Gaza back to the 'Gyptians

Dont make them have to take it away

Give Gaza back to the 'Gyptians

Make Gaza Egyptian today

Edited May 12, 2008 by M.Dancer

[eyeball]

Steven Harper could blow his nose and people like you would be jumping up and down, screaming and wailing and gnashing your teeth and moaning about how evil he is.

Only if he had a communicable disease and deliberately tried to infect eveyone with it by spewing his snot everywhere. Metaphorically speaking that's pretty much exactly what he did.

[eyeball]

I doubt very much if your average lefty is invested in military stocks.

Oh but they are so invested, both directly and indirectly, because in the end, they aren't really all that much different from the "right" when it comes to money and riches.

I can see indirect investments being made by CPP and the odd union pension more directly, but I don't think these really represent your average lefty anymore than money represents Jewishness. Its just greedy people who don't give a shit where their money comes from.

[buffycat]

BUMP

This pretty much sums it up:

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/1...prime-minister/

Obviously, Harper was trying to curry favor with Jews by appearing more Israeli and more Zionist than many Israelis themselves are.

But in truth, he is harming Jews, because it is not a sign of true friendship to encourage one’s friends to walk along the path of evil as Israel has manifestly been doing for decades.

In fact, Israel and Jews in general need sincere friends who should tell them that the pornographic oppression being meted out to the Palestinians is wrong and ought to stop immediately.

Today, Israel is intoxicated by its arrogance of power and the predominance of her supporters in North America, especially in the US. And as is the case with drunken people whose true friends don’t let them drive, lest they kill themselves and cause harm to others, Israel’s friends should likewise advise her to get sober and abandon her criminal discourse.

BTW - notice how this whole BS and calling of anti-semite (ahhh there it is under my pillow!) is getting ZERO discussion??

Hmmm wonder why????

[Argus]

BUMP

This pretty much sums it up:

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/1...prime-minister/

BTW - notice how this whole BS and calling of anti-semite (ahhh there it is under my pillow!) is getting ZERO discussion??

Hmmm wonder why????

If the Israelis have been "walking along the path of evil" for decades, what path would you say the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, Sudanese, Palestinians, Syrians, Pakistanis, Saudis, etc. have been following during that same time?

[buffycat]

If the Israelis have been "walking along the path of evil" for decades, what path would you say the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, Sudanese, Palestinians, Syrians, Pakistanis, Saudis, etc. have been following during that same time?

We aren't talking about the Russians - we are talking about a country who actually CALIMS to be a Democracy with Equal Rights for all - not the case by a long shot.

Go educate yourself:

http://www.btselem.org/

[buffycat]

Seems like Bushie is now comparing anyone who wishes discourse to those who would have talked to the Nazis... while of course he is paying tribute to his handlers in Israel. Sickening.

America needs a president who will put AMERICA first, second and third - and quit pandering to a mafioso quasi tyranny.