Hamas accepts Israel's right to exist in peace

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm a big fan of the sub movies as well. Roger that re: Das Boot (uncut) being the best version. There was apparently even a longer version of it on German television.

Ever try those Silent Hunter submarine simulators? They're pretty impressive. SH III is Atlantic while SH IV is Pacific. At hard levels you need to do all the angle on the bow calcs, etc, yourself.

Yes, I play them with my son. SH IV has the attack director (analog fire control solution). Submarine sims have been popular going all the way back to "Gato" on the original Macintosh 512K. The Americans were even more ruthless in the Pacific than Adm. Doenitz was in the Atlantic.

[DogOnPorch]

Ah...well. Truely kindred spirits then. I had the original Silent Service for Commadore 64.

If you're interested in such things, I work on an freeware (but not open source) space flight simulator known as Orbiter. Myself and several dozen others have been working on it since 2001. It's Dr Martin Schweiger's baby...but we're all his willing slaves...lol. It comes with several craft including the STS complete with virtual cabin etc. Working RMA...the full magilla. A little testy on Vista...best on XP or lower for the moment. Extras can be added. You can do all the Apollos, Geminis etc...very realistic. Runs out of a folder...doesn't alter the registry one iota.

http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/orbit.html (University College of London Medical/Physics Dept)

http://orbiter.dansteph.com/index.php?disp=d (Sound a seperate department...installs seperately)

Here's some screenies...

----------------------------------

Let's Go!

---Yuri Gagarin

[bush_cheney2004]

Ah...well. Truely kindred spirits then. I had the original Silent Service for Commadore 64.

If you're interested in such things, I work on an freeware (but not open source) space flight simulator known as Orbiter. Myself and several dozen others have been working on it since 2001. It's Dr Martin Schweiger's baby...but we're all his willing slaves...lol.....

Cool..I am a sucker for anything Apollo (and I also have five working Commodore 64's, two 128's with Jiffy DOS, and a Plus 4 !!). Peeks and Pokes will live forever in my basement.

Thanks for the links.....orbital dynamics sims are all the rage now. A P-3 pilot I know likes the solar system sims using gravity assist. We have come a long way from playing Lunar Lander on my HP-25 programmable calculator.

[DogOnPorch]

Cool..I am a sucker for anything Apollo (and I also have five working Commodore 64's, two 128's with Jiffy DOS, and a Plus 4 !!). Peeks and Pokes will live forever in my basement.

Thanks for the links.....orbital dynamics sims are all the rage now. A P-3 pilot I know likes the solar system sims using gravity assist. We have come a long way from playing Lunar Lander on my HP-25 programmable calculator.

It's truely a labor of love for all of us involved. Dr Martin's hope is to have it replace the numerous crappy demo-graphics that NASA and the ESA now use to describe their various missions to the media. That's the only commercial use envisioned at the moment. There are literally thousands of add-ons for it now. Much of my stuff has been incorperated into the basic sim but I have a small web-page listed in the related sites under planets and moons.

Make sure you get the high res textures. Any help feel free to PM or check here http://orbiter-forum.com/ .

Apollo comes in two flavors...

http://www.acsoft.ch/AMSO/amso.html

http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/Installation

Both are extremely complex for newbs...best start with the basics.

-----------------------------------------

Up, up and away...

---5th Dimension

[bush_cheney2004]

Both are extremely complex for newbs...best start with the basics.

Looks really good....I like the zoom feature (Page Up / Down) ....weeeeeee!

We actually use sims like this in amateur astronomy for things like timing Gallilean moon transits while viewing Jupiter. This is an old favorite:

http://indigo.ie/~gnugent/JupSat95/

[buffycat]

Bush and Dog: While it is nice that you two are slobbering all over one another - please create your own thread as your conversation here is completely off-topic.

So, please - get a room - er... your own thread to continue you lovefest.

Thanks.

[DogOnPorch]

Looks really good....I like the zoom feature (Page Up / Down) ....weeeeeee!

We actually use sims like this in amateur astronomy for things like timing Gallilean moon transits while viewing Jupiter. This is an old favorite:

http://indigo.ie/~gnugent/JupSat95/

The mouse wheel should do the same thing (zoom)...should drag your view around in 3D as well (left button).

As you've probably guessed...a complete reading of the basics in the Orbiter pdf is a good start...lots of controls. On Orbiter Forums there is a good list of recommended add-ons. It starts out as one of those basic programs you can just keep adding to until you have no room left on the ol' HD. Joysticks also work as does TrackIR if you're so equipped.

As for astronomy programs, I now use Celestia, which is also free. See screenies...really quite impressive 3D planetarium.

Bush and Dog: While it is nice that you two are slobbering all over one another - please create your own thread as your conversation here is completely off-topic.

So, please - get a room - er... your own thread to continue you lovefest.

Thanks.

We would, but since you've already booked all the rooms under Mr and Mrs Ilan Pappé, we were unable. Six pages of this thread...would you like to talk about it ALL over again? BC and I are merely using this bloated corpse for something constructive. But, point taken. However, I think you're missing an opportunity to quiz BC-2004 about what the Cold War was really like from a submariner's POV. In case you don't realize...Polaris...Trident, etc were/are submarine launched thermonuclear weapons.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Outside the university walls, some have even called Pappe a real traitor, a public enemy. In Maariv, Ben-Dror Yemini called him "one of the biggest new anti-Semites," no less. "If he's coming toward you on the street, cross to the other sidewalk. Don't sit next to him on public transportation. Don't exchange a word with him, good or bad. Treat him as Jews throughout the generations treated those who removed themselves from the community."

---From 'Alone on the Barricades'

Edited May 10, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[bush_cheney2004]

Bush and Dog: While it is nice that you two are slobbering all over one another - please create your own thread as your conversation here is completely off-topic.

So, please - get a room - er... your own thread to continue you lovefest.

Thanks.

Then I take it that you don't mind if Israel uses her Dolphin class SSG's to nuke the crap out of Hamas or Iran, since it is "off topic"! LOL

[DogOnPorch]

Aren't those type 800s supposed to be like super stealth subs? Top shelf stuff. Torpedo launched missiles rather than silos if I recall.

---------------------------------------

Eternal Father, strong to save,

Whose arm hath bound the restless wave,

Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep

Its own appointed limits keep;

Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,

For those in peril on the sea...

[Oleg Bach]

Aren't those type 800s supposed to be like super stealth subs? Top shelf stuff. Torpedo launched missiles rather than silos if I recall.

---------------------------------------

Eternal Father, strong to save,

Whose arm hath bound the restless wave,

Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep

Its own appointed limits keep;

Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,

For those in peril on the sea...

Real men of sound body and mind do not need weapons - only weak and cowardly dweebs want the latest "top shelf stuff" Israel has earned her stripes the hard way - through sheer stubborness. Now that they finally simply wore down the Arab world through plain old tonacity..I guess they have the right to stay - good luck - what a bunch of self centered trouble makers..these shemites should have stayed in Europe and not bothered their Arabic shemite brothers with the intrusion..but I suppose that they were to cowardly to tough it out in Europe prior 1948 - so they workded as henchmen destablizer for their American and British masters - and recieved the weapons a coward needs..I really don't think it was worth the price of a "homeland" 6o years of mayhem as the world suffered - blind Jewish stubborness combined with American capitalist greed amounted to a nightmare - hope it ends soon!

[bush_cheney2004]

Aren't those type 800s supposed to be like super stealth subs? Top shelf stuff. Torpedo launched missiles rather than silos if I recall.

Yes...the newer deliveries will include AIP....Israel has quietly deployed her own regional strategic deterrent, just like the Big Boys. No wonder Iran is wetting its pants!

[bush_cheney2004]

...I really don't think it was worth the price of a "homeland" 6o years of mayhem as the world suffered - blind Jewish stubborness combined with American capitalist greed amounted to a nightmare - hope it ends soon!

Real men live in freedom...how do you think your's has been preserved all these years?

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ISRAEL......blow out the candles (and a lot more) with 'stubborness"

[DogOnPorch]

Real men of sound body and mind do not need weapons - only weak and cowardly dweebs want the latest "top shelf stuff" Israel has earned her stripes the hard way - through sheer stubborness. Now that they finally simply wore down the Arab world through plain old tonacity..I guess they have the right to stay - good luck - what a bunch of self centered trouble makers..these shemites should have stayed in Europe and not bothered their Arabic shemite brothers with the intrusion..but I suppose that they were to cowardly to tough it out in Europe prior 1948 - so they workded as henchmen destablizer for their American and British masters - and recieved the weapons a coward needs..I really don't think it was worth the price of a "homeland" 6o years of mayhem as the world suffered - blind Jewish stubborness combined with American capitalist greed amounted to a nightmare - hope it ends soon!

So I gather that's a "No" vote for the Zionist Entity?

Yes...the newer deliveries will include AIP....Israel has quietly deployed her own regional strategic deterrent, just like the Big Boys. No wonder Iran is wetting its pants!

Yes one has to wonder how many nuclear shortcuts Iran will be willing/trying to make to play the apparent game of catch-up. Perhaps it's just the Cold War all over again in small scale with Israel forcing an arms race that will take all the oil money Iran has just to keep heads above water. These AIP equipped submarines make their own oxygen much like a nuclear powered sub...correct?

------------------------------------------------------------------

Goldie, how many times have I told you guys that I don't want no horsing around on the airplane?

---Major T.J. "King" Kong: Dr Strangelove

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes one has to wonder how many nuclear shortcuts Iran will be willing/trying to make to play the apparent game of catch-up. Perhaps it's just the Cold War all over again in small scale with Israel forcing an arms race that will take all the oil money Iran has just to keep heads above water. These AIP equipped submarines make their own oxygen much like a nuclear powered sub...correct?

Yes, there are several ways to do AIP, including onboard oxidant. They don't have the endurance or power of nuclear propulsion, but certainly extend the range and stealth of a conventional boat, at much lower cost. Perfect for Irsael's "needs".

[Oleg Bach]

So I gather that's a "No" vote for the Zionist Entity?

Yes one has to wonder how many nuclear shortcuts Iran will be willing/trying to make to play the apparent game of catch-up. Perhaps it's just the Cold War all over again in small scale with Israel forcing an arms race that will take all the oil money Iran has just to keep heads above water. These AIP equipped submarines make their own oxygen much like a nuclear powered sub...correct?

------------------------------------------------------------------

Goldie, how many times have I told you guys that I don't want no horsing around on the airplane?

---Major T.J. "King" Kong: Dr Strangelove

Zionism is elitism..I guess that is a NO vote. If Zionism had sprung from Buddism well maybe yes..but any group that even has the slightest incling of governing a subhuman sub-calls - call it the goyem factor...is not for me..I can not imagine being raised in a household where as jew you were quietly taught that non jews were inferiours and to be enslaved - so where did the Nazis of old get their ideas? From the Jews of course...go figure - Poor old Freud killed him self with morphine when he figured out his ideas for social manipulation through ego - hate and sexuality were going to be used to further the career of Aldof and the boys...and for the life of me - how come all of Hitlers top generals and advisors had Jewish names...why Zionist of course..and Zionist want to be gods..and good old fashioned Jews that worshipped the real God were considered pests to be exterminated - because they would not bow down...Zionism and Judaism are light years apart...and Hitler - practiced anti-christism - as do the Zionist Nazis....just kidding ...thought I would toss that against the wall and see if it would stick...nope - private clubs that exclude eventually offend.

[DogOnPorch]

Zionism is elitism..I guess that is a NO vote. If Zionism had sprung from Buddism well maybe yes..but any group that even has the slightest incling of governing a subhuman sub-calls - call it the goyem factor...is not for me..I can not imagine being raised in a household where as jew you were quietly taught that non jews were inferiours and to be enslaved - so where did the Nazis of old get their ideas? From the Jews of course...go figure - Poor old Freud killed him self with morphine when he figured out his ideas for social manipulation through ego - hate and sexuality were going to be used to further the career of Aldof and the boys...and for the life of me - how come all of Hitlers top generals and advisors had Jewish names...why Zionist of course..and Zionist want to be gods..and good old fashioned Jews that worshipped the real God were considered pests to be exterminated - because they would not bow down...Zionism and Judaism are light years apart...and Hitler - practiced anti-christism - as do the Zionist Nazis....just kidding ...thought I would toss that against the wall and see if it would stick...nope - private clubs that exclude eventually offend.

To be fair, Oleg, Nazism draws from a much larger well than that...including existentialism turned toward heroism in the form of the return to the glorification of pagan gods and mythology. Nazism was all about the nation state...the purity of the nation state and the people...as they are both one in the same. It is indeed exclusive and it indeed did tend to offend.

I do see how some people can draw (incorrect) similarities between Nazism and Zionism on some levels...but even buffycat would have to admit that no matter what, nothing matches the horror that was Nazi Germany and their empire of terror.

To make flipant comparisons that they are that much alike shows no real context in history.

BC2004: Yes, there are several ways to do AIP, including onboard oxidant. They don't have the endurance or power of nuclear propulsion, but certainly extend the range and stealth of a conventional boat, at much lower cost. Perfect for Irsael's "needs".

Plenty good enough for the Med and Red...perhaps further, even.

-------------------------------------------------

My brain hurts!

---Monty Python

[Rue]

what a bunch of self centered trouble makers..these shemites should have stayed in Europe and not bothered their Arabic shemite brothers with the intrusion..but I suppose that they were to cowardly to tough it out in Europe prior 1948 - so they workded as henchmen destablizer for their American and British masters - and recieved the weapons a coward needs..I really don't think it was worth the price of a "homeland" 6o years of mayhem as the world suffered - blind Jewish stubborness combined with American capitalist greed amounted to a nightmare - hope it ends soon!

Oleg do you have multiple personality disorder by any chance? You say good luck and you guess Israel has a right to exist (how Christian of you Oleg) then end with you hope it ends soon?

Sounds a tad bit conflicted Oleg even for you but then I find many Europeans conflicted about Jews and exhibit a sudden disconnect when they discuss their country's role in the persecution of Jews.

For example Oleg you state "shemites" should have stayed in Europe and were to cowardly to rough it out in Europe prior to 1948.

This is a classic example of how someone from a European country disconnects from how Jews were treated in Europe and tries to trivialize how Jews were treated as if it was some harmless name calling and teasing.

You are well aware that the holocaust required the collaboration of many people in many European countries and the elaborate cooperation and networking of government systems and railroad tracks to ship Jews out and into the death camps wiped out the vast majority of Jews and their neighbourhoods.

Get real Oleg. All the Jews of Europe were wiped out from all over Europe. Neighbourhoods ceased to exist. Property stolen, synagogues burned down or replaced by churches. Get real. There was no one or place to return to.

There were holocaust survivors that tried to return home. Some tried. Now their store or home was blown away by bombs or taken over by a non Jew. They had no money. Their bank accounts, long gone. They had no passports, no documentation, no money. They returned home to what? Empty neighbourhoods and memories of what?

Tell me Oleg if you were Ukrainian, would you want to return tothe same area where Stalin murdered everyone you knew and where you were forced to flee from? If you were Irish do you really think you would want to return to the place where all your loved ones starved to death?

Oh wait now, you expect all those cowards who fleed Darfur to return?

Hey I know. If I go on vacation to Mexico and I am raped and robbed and beaten to a pulp, you know what, very next vacation that is where I am going back to.

Get a grip Oleg. Asking a victim to return to the scene of a crime to live is just plain dumb. So is calling a victims of a crime or genocide a coward for not fighting back.

Do me a fabour Oleg, don't become a rape crisis counselor.

Stick with being a butcher. And I think you owe me some pork chops for the above comments. Wierd even for you.

Edited May 10, 2008 by Rue

[Oleg Bach]

Oleg do you have multiple personality disorder by any chance? You say good luck and you guess Israel has a right to exist (how Christian of you Oleg) then end with you hope it ends soon?

Sounds a tad bit conflicted Oleg even for you but then I find many Europeans conflicted about Jews and exhibit a disconnect to their coyntry's roles in the persecution of Jews.

For example Oleg you state "shemites" should have styed in Europe and were to cowardly to rough it out in Europe prior to 1948.

This is a classic example of how someone from a European country disconnects from how Jews were treated in Europe-blame Jews for what happened to them. Well at least in your case you limit your blaming an scapegoating to depicting Jews as cowards and not evil vermin who killed Christ and made blood from Christian children and spread disease and horror wherever they were. Or are you going to go there. Do me a favour Oleg, don't. Its boring. Heard it all before.

But tell me Oleg do you really think it is rational to suggest a thesis such as Jews were cowards? Come on Oleg what caused a usually bizarre but rational man to make such an outlandish stereotypical assumption?

More to the point you are well aware that the holocaust required the collaboration of many people in many European countries and the elaborate cooperation and networking of government systems and railroad tracks to ship Jews out and into the death camps.

Get real Oleg. All the Jews of Europe were wiped out from all over Europe. Neighbourhoods ceased to exist. Property stolen, synagogues burned down or replaced by churches. Get real.

There were holocaust survivors that returned home. Some tried. Have you any idea what that entailed? They had no passports, no documentation, no money. They returned home to what? Empty neighbourhoods and memories of what?

Tell me Oleg if you were Ukrainian, would you want to return tothe same area where Stalin murdered everyone you knew and where you were forced to flee from? If you were Irish do you really think you would want to return to the place where all your loved ones starved to death?

Oh wait now, you expect all those cowards in Sudan to remain? You expect refugees worldwide to remain and die or better still after they flee return to the place where such horrors existed?

Hey I know. If I go on vacation to Mexico and I am raped and robbed and beaten to a pulp, you know what, very next vacation that is where I am going back to.

Get a grip Oleg. Asking a victim to return to the scene of a crime to live is just plain dumb. So are calling victims of crimes cowards for not fighting back.

Do me a fabour Oleg, don't become a rape crisis counselor.

Stick with being a butcher. And I think you owe me some pork chops for the above comments. Wierd even for you.

Did not say I hope Isreal ends soon...I said - hope the nightmare for all of us ends soon. Israel has been the source of nightmarishness. Let me set you straight. My mothers family was whiped out by a combination of Nazi aggression and Stalinism..they destroy over 12 million Ukrainians and I never heard of them looking for a god damn seperate homeland that the establishment would become a troublesome blight on the world..They migrated all over the planet and did not lay claim to an area that perhaps their great great great great grandmother may have lived in at one time.

Now the Russian curse - they murdered and jailed all of my fathers family - even though my father fought on behalf of the Kremlin and over 20 million Russians were murdered fighting of those pesky Nazis while being attacked from behind by the coersive soviets they represented...I did not hear of them flooding off to start a homeland and cause problems for everyone other than oil merchants and weapons dealers. By the way speaking of rape counselor..my mother was raped by Nazis when she was 15 - she also did time in a German prison camp - when the Americans bombed her to freedom she took a gun from a dead German and went from house to house killing German woman who's husbands were at the Russsian front - She was her own rape counselor..when the rapist got home his wife was dead...I would say that was a healing experience for my mother and justified..

I am not an anti-semite...but for the cowardice of some Jews during WW2 ...my mother commented on an occurance she witnessed..A Nazi snatched a new born babe for a Jewish mothers arms and killed it..my mother was taken back by the fact that the mother did not put up a fight - My mum would have gone down fighting..she was not a coward..nor was my father - and both were surivors and we entertained Christian and Jew and atheist - Israel had a bad attitude and no one tribe or group is favoured by God..either we are all favoured or none are favoured!

[Rue]

Zionism is elitism.. jew you were quietly taught that non jews were inferiours and to be enslaved.... - so where did the Nazis of old get their ideas? From the Jews of course...how come all of Hitlers top generals and advisors had Jewish names...why Zionist of course..Zionism and Judaism are light years apart...and Hitler - practiced anti-christism - as do the Zionist Nazis....just kidding ...thought I would toss that against the wall and see if it would stick...nope - private clubs that exclude eventually offend.

Oleg you went off the medication I guess. You sound like one of my buddies that walks up and down on college street and barks and yaps at himself. Nice man on the medication, a biter when he goes off it.

First of all, I hate to break this to you Oleg but you have committed a classic example of how someone fuses Judaism and Zionism together into one concept and is precisely why people like me will call you out on it and say no what you do is not anti-Zionist it is anti-Jewish.

I then call it anti-semitic because its based on your negative subjective stereotypical assumptions that assign negative characteristics on all Jews that can do only one thing-incite hatred against Jews for being Jews.

No Oleg I was not taught that non Jews were inferior. In fact if you made an effort to speak to a Jew or read up on Judaism, it says nothing of the sort anywhere. What it does say is that all non Jews are to be respected and treated the same way we Jews want to be treated. That golden rule Oleg, it didn't originate from Jesus, it comes from the Talmud, and I am sure the Talmud borrowed it from Zoroastreanism, and its interesting but that Golden Rule is present in each and every religion.

No there is no sinister Jewish conspiracy where we sit around sneering at non Jews. That is an ancient anti-semitic cannard and the fact it continues to be repeated does not suprise me. Some people from Europe, particularly East Europe just don't want give up such myths now do they Oleg?

So do tell Oleg, show me in Judaism where it is taught non Jews are inferior. While you are at it since you fused Judaism and Zionism into one hated object of your attention, show me anywhere in any Zionist doctrine where it discusses non Jews as inferior.

Your comment that all the leading Nazi generals and leaders had Jewish names? Would you care to share those names let alone document how they were Jews?

With due respect Oleg to suggest Nazis were Jews is pretty bizarre let alone just plain nasty.

Have I missed something here Oleg? Are you being satirical and I am taking it literally or are you being serious?

Zionism is not even a Jewish religion doctrine.

In Judaism there is a concept that Jews are chosen. Chosen does not mean we think we are superior or better then those not chosen. It refers to being given what we consider is an obligation we must carry out for God. It has nothing to do with how we perceived anyone else. It refers to our obligation to honour and obey God.

In Judaism the way we are told we must honour God is both on an individual level and a collective community level. The notion we should live in Israel comes from the concept that God told Moses to go bring us there and we were to settle there and our link to God is through that nation he promised to us.

Find that idiotic? No more idiotic then the concept that Jesus is the son of God and the only way, or only Muhammed knows the truth and so on and so on.

Zionism is not the above. Zionism is a romantic notion that arose in the trade unions in Europe where Jews were poor and persecuted and dreamed of being their own bosses. That's where it started. The original Zionist doctrine is socialist and talks of a Jewish homeland in Israel because that is where Jews come from.

If you lived in Europe where you were not allowed to own land or work in certain jobs or get citizenship in certain countries and were constantly murdered or beaten or were subject to the scorn of the majority of the people where you lived and were segregated of course you would dream of living somewhere where this could not happen anymore.

The original Zionist doctrine says nothing about Jews as a race or creating a country that is based on race.

The Jewish communal dream it talks about was not about hating anyone or feeling superior, it was and still is about the concept of universal sufferage for Jews no different then any other people who were enslaved or found themselves being persecuted and longed for their freedom.

To suggest Zionism is Nazism is really not funny. Zionism did not preach the extermination of non Jews simply because they are non Jews. Zionism does not create myths of hatred let alone comment on non Jews.

All this shit that Zionism is Nazism, racism, this blurring of Judaism and Zionism, these false assumptions you have as to what Judaism teaches Jews about non Jews, they are all based on negative subjective preconceptions that come from ancient myths that were passed down generation to generation through the churches of Euorpe and its time you stop repeating them for the sake of your son.

He has to live in a world of many ethnic groups and as you stated in another post has been the target of hatred by non whites. Do you think he stands a chance if he's taught by you such things?

Teach him to read about those he does not understand or are not like him Oleg. You do the same.

Please. You sound like you have completely lost it.

if that was your idea of humour, sorry I missed it.

[Oleg Bach]

Oleg you went off the medication I guess. You sound like one of my buddies that walks up and down on college street and barks and yaps at himself. Nice man on the medication, a biter when he goes off it.

First of all, I hate to break this to you Oleg but you have committed a classic example of how someone fuses Judaism and Zionism together into one concept and is precisely why people like me will call you out on it and say no what you do is not anti-Zionist it is anti-Jewish.

I then call it anti-semitic because its based on your negative subjective stereotypical assumptions that assign negative characteristics on all Jews that can do only one thing-incite hatred against Jews for being Jews.

No Oleg I was not taught that non Jews were inferior. In fact if you made an effort to speak to a Jew or read up on Judaism, it says nothing of the sort anywhere. What it does say is that all non Jews are to be respected and treated the same way we Jews want to be treated. That golden rule Oleg, it didn't originate from Jesus, it comes from the Talmud, and I am sure the Talmud borrowed it from Zoroastreanism, and its interesting but that Golden Rule is present in each and every religion.

No there is no sinister Jewish conspiracy where we sit around sneering at non Jews. That is an ancient anti-semitic cannard and the fact it continues to be repeated does not suprise me. Some people from Europe, particularly East Europe just don't want give up such myths now do they Oleg?

So do tell Oleg, show me in Judaism where it is taught non Jews are inferior. While you are at it since you fused Judaism and Zionism into one hated object of your attention, show me anywhere in any Zionist doctrine where it discusses non Jews as inferior.

Your comment that all the leading Nazi generals and leaders had Jewish names? Would you care to share those names let alone document how they were Jews?

With due respect Oleg to suggest Nazis were Jews is pretty bizarre let alone just plain nasty.

Have I missed something here Oleg? Are you being satirical and I am taking it literally or are you being serious?

Zionism is not even a Jewish religion doctrine.

In Judaism there is a concept that Jews are chosen. Chosen does not mean we think we are superior or better then those not chosen. It refers to being given what we consider is an obligation we must carry out for God. It has nothing to do with how we perceived anyone else. It refers to our obligation to honour and obey God.

In Judaism the way we are told we must honour God is both on an individual level and a collective community level. The notion we should live in Israel comes from the concept that God told Moses to go bring us there and we were to settle there and our link to God is through that nation he promised to us.

Find that idiotic? No more idiotic then the concept that Jesus is the son of God and the only way, or only Muhammed knows the truth and so on and so on.

Zionism is not the above. Zionism is a romantic notion that arose in the trade unions in Europe where Jews were poor and persecuted and dreamed of being their own bosses. That's where it started. The original Zionist doctrine is socialist and talks of a Jewish homeland in Israel because that is where Jews come from.

If you lived in Europe where you were not allowed to own land or work in certain jobs or get citizenship in certain countries and were constantly murdered or beaten or were subject to the scorn of the majority of the people where you lived and were segregated of course you would dream of living somewhere where this could not happen anymore.

The original Zionist doctrine says nothing about Jews as a race or creating a country that is based on race.

The Jewish communal dream it talks about was not about hating anyone or feeling superior, it was and still is about the concept of universal sufferage for Jews no different then any other people who were enslaved or found themselves being persecuted and longed for their freedom.

To suggest Zionism is Nazism is really not funny. Zionism did not preach the extermination of non Jews simply because they are non Jews. Zionism does not create myths of hatred let alone comment on non Jews.

All this shit that Zionism is Nazism, racism, this blurring of Judaism and Zionism, these false assumptions you have as to what Judaism teaches Jews about non Jews, they are all based on negative subjective preconceptions that come from ancient myths that were passed down generation to generation through the churches of Euorpe and its time you stop repeating them for the sake of your son.

He has to live in a world of many ethnic groups and as you stated in another post has been the target of hatred by non whites. Do you think he stands a chance if he's taught by you such things?

Teach him to read about those he does not understand or are not like him Oleg. You do the same.

Please. You sound like you have completely lost it.

if that was your idea of humour, sorry I missed it.

First - your retort is real long and I may have to read it in reverse at my liesure..secondly my chumpish friend - I don't like the "medication" implication...I type real fast and to me it's like playihng the piano - I really don't give it much thought..kind of like free form jazz - I am not bonkers...I'm an artist and will say just about anything to get some effect...as for fusing Zionism and Judeaism together. You are in error. Zionist are not religious hence not Jews. I have no problem seperating the believers from the infidels....there! I used the world infidel...guess it's time for a pill according to your quick judgement and potential persecution of me...so how is your lunitic worn out professor friend who scampters down College street speaking his tired old thoughts to himself?

I have not really lost it my friend - just don't give a damn and don't want to be anymore informed or conditioned than I already am - just can't take it seriously as you do...so what kind of medication do you have young man - anything good? Damn - I forgot - pharma product has had all the pleasure compounds removed..who the hell needs dope that keeps you from speaking your mind - even if that mind is a bit wacko...again...show me one human being that is not dellusional or misinformed and I will give you a bottle of gin - that's my medication and I can't affort any right now - so YES I am off my gin...damn...wonder if there is any Vodka around here? BACK TO ISRAEL....time for them to stop whinning and stop laundering money and stop keeping weapons dealers and manufacturers rich..they have just become an insidious insitution that generates money for bad people - do I need medication for saying that?

[Oleg Bach]

First - your retort is real long and I may have to read it in reverse at my liesure..secondly my chumpish friend - I don't like the "medication" implication...I type real fast and to me it's like playihng the piano - I really don't give it much thought..kind of like free form jazz - I am not bonkers...I'm an artist and will say just about anything to get some effect...as for fusing Zionism and Judeaism together. You are in error. Zionist are not religious hence not Jews. I have no problem seperating the believers from the infidels....there! I used the world infidel...guess it's time for a pill according to your quick judgement and potential persecution of me...so how is your lunitic worn out professor friend who scampters down College street speaking his tired old thoughts to himself?

I have not really lost it my friend - just don't give a damn and don't want to be anymore informed or conditioned than I already am - just can't take it seriously as you do...so what kind of medication do you have young man - anything good? Damn - I forgot - pharma product has had all the pleasure compounds removed..who the hell needs dope that keeps you from speaking your mind - even if that mind is a bit wacko...again...show me one human being that is not dellusional or misinformed and I will give you a bottle of gin - that's my medication and I can't affort any right now - so YES I am off my gin...damn...wonder if there is any Vodka around here? BACK TO ISRAEL....time for them to stop whinning and stop laundering money and stop keeping weapons dealers and manufacturers rich..they have just become an insidious insitution that generates money for bad people - do I need medication for saying that?

Post Script...The teachings of the great rabboni some call Jesus was brilliant..and pure logic - plus he was the physical king of Judea. To bad Christianity never really reached the world and was high jacked by the state of Rome and twisted and used to control - Christ was a Jewish rebel agains the Roman occupiers - he was not a coward and did not sell out to the state - he was brave...his fellow Judeans were not including that rat Peter.

[Rue]

Post Script...The teachings of the great rabboni some call Jesus was brilliant..and pure logic - plus he was the physical king of Judea. To bad Christianity never really reached the world and was high jacked by the state of Rome and twisted and used to control - Christ was a Jewish rebel agains the Roman occupiers - he was not a coward and did not sell out to the state - he was brave...his fellow Judeans were not including that rat Peter.

Oleg all I know is you seem to now have gone off on a tangent where you believe you can Judge people and call them cowards, to the point where you ridicule people raped by the same abusers as your mother.

Oleg what I do know and I concede its not much, is that when someone accuses another of being a coward for not fighting back, they are probably being a presumptious, arrogant, judgemental, ignorant, sanctimonious, self-righteous, prick.

I also find it interesting you scorn victims and focus all your attention on ridiculing them but spend no time commenting on their abusers.

That Oleg for me is is the kind of cognitive disconnect I have come to witness with abusers.

What I also know Oleg, is that is both abusive and cowardly to ridicule a victim particulary when you invoke your mother's suffering or Jesus to try justify such behaviour.

You might want to ask yourself whether Jesus since you quote him went around Judging people and calling them cowards. I know a lot of people claim to know what he said but I am under the impression his Talmudic training and his exposure to Buddhism and Taoism and Hinduism in his travels would not have lent to such behaviour.

Edited May 10, 2008 by Rue

[Rue]

First - your retort is real long and I may have to read it in reverse at my liesure..secondly my chumpish friend - I don't like the "medication" implication...I type real fast and to me it's like playihng the piano - I really don't give it much thought..kind of like free form jazz - I am not bonkers...I'm an artist and will say just about anything to get some effect...as for fusing Zionism and Judeaism together. You are in error. Zionist are not religious hence not Jews. I have no problem seperating the believers from the infidels....there! I used the world infidel...guess it's time for a pill according to your quick judgement and potential persecution of me...so how is your lunitic worn out professor friend who scampters down College street speaking his tired old thoughts to himself?

I have not really lost it my friend - just don't give a damn and don't want to be anymore informed or conditioned than I already am - just can't take it seriously as you do...so what kind of medication do you have young man - anything good? Damn - I forgot - pharma product has had all the pleasure compounds removed..who the hell needs dope that keeps you from speaking your mind - even if that mind is a bit wacko...again...show me one human being that is not dellusional or misinformed and I will give you a bottle of gin - that's my medication and I can't affort any right now - so YES I am off my gin...damn...wonder if there is any Vodka around here? BACK TO ISRAEL....time for them to stop whinning and stop laundering money and stop keeping weapons dealers and manufacturers rich..they have just become an insidious insitution that generates money for bad people - do I need medication for saying that?

Lol. You are stark raving mad but perceptive. He was indeed a professor! A physicist. He's part of the "chosen" who believe light and the way it travels is evidence of an omnipotent and infinite presence some like to call God. Imagine that, an atheist who by scientific process proved to himself divine essence exists-drove him stark raving mad, but he still can be quite lucid and I suspect should have been an electrician instead.

[Oleg Bach]

Oleg all I know is you seem to now have gone off on a tangent where you believe you can Judge people and call them cowards, to the point where you ridicule people raped by the same abusers as your mother.

Oleg what I do know and I concede its not much, is that when someone accuses another of being a coward for not fighting back, they are being a preumptious, arrogant, judgemental, ignorant, sanctimonious, self-righteous, fool.

I also find it interesting you scorn victims and focus all your attention on ridiculing them but spend no time commenting on their abusers.

That Oleg is the disconnect that comes from someone I can only suspect has been an abuser and does not see himself as one.

It is both abusive and cowardly Oleg to ridicule a victim particulary when you invoke your mother's suffering totry justify such behaviour.

Your approach is abusive. The only thing that I am disconnected with is the fact that I can not bare to even think of genocide - of suffering and persecution and of murder..honestly if I connect to those realities I would fall to the ground and weep and would not be able to stop. Here is the attack- upon my person because you did not understand me..now you state "I can only suspect has been an abuser" - First my friend I am not old enought to have stuffed Jews into ditches - nor am I a person that approves in the killing or tormenting of anyone or anything. As far as using the word "coward" in regards to those the fought for Israeli existance or for those that were rounded up and holocausted prior to that..perhaps that is to strong a word. For you to infere that I do not use people properly but abuse them smells a bit fishy. It appears that without any evidence other than a rant and the reckless use of the word coward...you are prepared to persecute me and call me an abuser as if I am some incarnate that flicked the switch at the gas chamber...find another scape goat - perhaps you are a coward after all.

[Rue]

Post Script...The teachings of the great rabboni some call Jesus was brilliant..and pure logic - plus he was the physical king of Judea. To bad Christianity never really reached the world and was high jacked by the state of Rome and twisted and used to control - Christ was a Jewish rebel agains the Roman occupiers - he was not a coward and did not sell out to the state - he was brave...his fellow Judeans were not including that rat Peter.

You sound like you need heroes to worship. You might also want to tryito find something good about yourself. You might find it will make you less judgemental, less prone to barking on college street and less likely to confuse hallucinations with visions.

Or like I said you could simply stick to Lithium or something bizarre like Thorazine. It gives one twiches. That can pass as you pointing your finger in righteous indignation.

Me my favourite drug is chocolate marshmellow cookies. When I was younger it was peyote. Then I decided running up and down College street barking made it problematic to keep a job.

That and the constant fights with Satan over who was more cowardly, him or God.

All I know is God just keeps laughing at us both and offering us chocolate marshmellow cookies.