US Schools the New Old West?

[Newfie Canadian]

It seems there's a movement to allow students at US colleges and universities to carry concealed weapons.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/14/campus.guns/index.html

It seems to me that this is overkill, pardon the terrible pun. Seriously, would you want to go to a school where any idiot is allowed to carry a gun?

I wouldn't.

But, where does the US constitutional right to bear arms vs student safety fit in?

[guyser]

I can think of three schools that, had they been allowed to carry, would have suffered less loss of life than they did.

Virginia Tech for one, that guy would have been blown away long before he killed #4.He got how many..?...23 24 people?

[Newfie Canadian]

I can think of three schools that, had they been allowed to carry, would have suffered less loss of life than they did.

Virginia Tech for one, that guy would have been blown away long before he killed #4.He got how many..?...23 24 people?

That's an interesting premise.

Let's say a loon walks into a school cafeteria (into what we'll call for want of a better term a 'target rich environment') filled with, I don't know, 150 students. Let's say for argument sake, that 25 of them are carrying concealed weapons and have no qualms about using them. They all haul out there weapons and fire at the loon. How many innocent souls are these all but deputized students going to extinguish?

[bush_cheney2004]

...They all haul out there weapons and fire at the loon. How many innocent souls are these all but deputized students going to extinguish?

Less than the amount extinguished had the "loon" opened fire anyway. In math, I always liked the word problems!

Let x = number of innocent souls "extinguished" by loon

Let y = number of innocent souls "extinguished" by deputy students

x + y > y where x and y are positive integers

Note: unborn fetuses carried by knocked up students don't count in Canada

Edited April 16, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Newfie Canadian]

Less than the amount extinguished had the "loon" opened fire anyway. In math, I always liked the word problems!

Let x = number of innocent souls "extinguished" by loon

Let y = number of innocent souls "extinguished" by deputy students

x + y > y where x and y are positive integers

Note: unborn fetuses carried by knocked up students don't count in Canada

Hmmnnn.

You think so? While I don't concede your point as there are too many variables so let's try another problem. Student A tells Student B that she had an affair with Student C, and now she's carrying an unborn fetus, Fetus A (do they count in the US? And for the record they count in my books) belonging to Student C. Student B is carrying a gun he's allowed to carry because of this farcical idea and blows away Student A, Student B and Fetus A in a fit of rage on campus where untold innocents may be caught in the line of fire or otherwise mentally traumatized.

A bit melodramatic and soap operish, but then again we are talking about guns in schools.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Newfie Canadian

[bush_cheney2004]

Hmmnnn.

You think so? While I don't concede your point as there are too many variables so let's try another problem. Student A tells Student B that she had an affair with Student C, and now she's carrying an unborn fetus, Fetus A (do they count in the US? And for the record they count in my books) belonging to Student C. Student B is carrying a gun he's allowed to carry because f this farcical idea and blows away Student A, Student B and Fetus A in a fit of rage on campus where untold innocents may be caught in the line of fire or otherwise mentally traumatized.

A bit melodramatic and soap operish, but then again we are talking about guns in schools.

Doesn't matter....X + Y is still greater than X or Y (the fetus counts in the USA but is not a person in Canada). In this specific example, Student B has to kill himself after killing Student A and Fetus A. Even if she was carrying twin fetuses, Student C lives to knock up somebody else, and the risk to others is only slightly higher than in deer season.

We have a large sign at my office door which sternly declares that "Guns are banned on the premises", as I live in a right to carry state. The standing joke is that we would need to go "postal" in the parking lot or risk a reprimand or even employment termination for shooting people inside the buiding, violating the ban.

Edited April 16, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Newfie Canadian]

Doesn't matter....X + Y is still greater than X or Y (the fetus counts in the USA but is not a person in Canada). In this specific example, Student B has to kill himself after killing Student A and Fetus A. Even if she was carrying twin fetuses, Student C lives to knock up somebody else, and the risk to thers is only slightly higher than in deer season.

We have a large sign at my office door which sternly declares that "Guns are banned on the premises", as I live in a right to carry state. The standing joke is that we would need to go "postal" in the parking lot or risk a reprimand or even employment termination for shooting people inside the buiding, violating the ban.

That's an interesting standing joke. I will confess it got a giggle out of me.

There was a typo in my problem, as I meant to say Student B blows away Student A and Student C, not Student B. Sorry about that.

So my question is this: you(or anyone else reading this) have no problem with allowing young adults stressed out over grades and God knows what else to carry weapons in a school?

I guess what I'm saying is that I would be more concerned about a 'deputized' student snapping and pulling out his/her weapon than I would about a loon breeching security and going bonkers. I know it has happened (VT for example) and it's tragic to say the least, but how many schools operate in the US that has never had a problem of any kind whatsoever, let alone someone walking in with automatic weapons and killing people en masse?

I have two daughters, and I'd have to think long and hard about letting them attend a school where God knows how many weapons are being carried...if I lived in the US I mean.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Newfie Canadian

[bush_cheney2004]

...I have two daughters, and I'd have to think long and hard about letting them attend a school where God knows how many weapons are being carried...if I lived in the US I mean.

I may be glib about this, but anybody's daughters (or sons) probably face this and other unknown perils each day, and as I'm sure you know, are far more likely to die in a motor vehicle crash...even in Canada.

The biggest school massacre in the USA didn't even involve firearms....some embezzeler / tax protester detonated dynomite in Bath Michigan, killing 44 and wounding 50 in 1927. He crushed his wife's skull earlier as an appetizer.

Right to carry states usually have provisions to ban possession on private and public property. Great for the sign making business.

[Newfie Canadian]

I may be glib about this, but anybody's daughters (or sons) probably face this and other unknown perils each day, and as I'm sure you know, are far more likely to die in a motor vehicle crash...even in Canada.

Yes...and that's part of my point. Part of the justification for this group of approx. 25,000 students wanting to carry guns on campus are the instances of on campus massacres that have taken place. I have no idea of the actual odds, but I would guess the chances of the average college student being killed by a raving loon shooting people on their campus are still very remote. If college students in the US are anything like they are where I come from, they're more likely to die from alcohol poisoning after going on a bender after exams.

The biggest school massacre in the USA didn't even involve firearms....some embezzeler / tax protester detonated dynomite in Bath Michigan, killing 44 and wounding 50 in 1927. He crushed his wife's skull earlier as an appetizer.

I didn't know that.

Right to carry states usually have provisions to ban possession on private and public property. Great for the sign making business.

I bet. I'm curious though...if the weapons are still banned on public and private property, what's left? And I'm not asking that cheekily or anything, I'm serious. Public property I assume to be government buildings, schools and that sort of thing, while private would be businesses and homes, so what's left? I'm honestly curious.

[White Doors]

Yes...and that's part of my point. Part of the justification for this group of approx. 25,000 students wanting to carry guns on campus are the instances of on campus massacres that have taken place. I have no idea of the actual odds, but I would guess the chances of the average college student being killed by a raving loon shooting people on their campus are still very remote. If college students in the US are anything like they are where I come from, they're more likely to die from alcohol poisoning after going on a bender after exams.

I didn't know that.

I bet. I'm curious though...if the weapons are still banned on public and private property, what's left? And I'm not asking that cheekily or anything, I'm serious. Public property I assume to be government buildings, schools and that sort of thing, while private would be businesses and homes, so what's left? I'm honestly curious.

Your vehicle. see carjacking.

Edited April 16, 2008 by White Doors

[kuzadd]

I can think of three schools that, had they been allowed to carry, would have suffered less loss of life than they did.

Virginia Tech for one, that guy would have been blown away long before he killed #4.He got how many..?...23 24 people?

My sentiments exactly!!!!!

[guyser]

That's an interesting premise.

Let's say a loon walks into a school cafeteria (into what we'll call for want of a better term a 'target rich environment') filled with, I don't know, 150 students. Let's say for argument sake, that 25 of them are carrying concealed weapons and have no qualms about using them. They all haul out there weapons and fire at the loon. How many innocent souls are these all but deputized students going to extinguish?

Shooting loons is against the law here. Oh, not the bird huh....jk

If 25 of them are carrying concealed, 23 of them will bolt out the door with the rest of the group, but one or two will engage the bad guy. And likely....likely one of them will have taken position to do deadly harm instead of random firing.

The 2nd amendment carries with it the responsibility (not legally written) to know your backdrop.You (gunowner) are trained in that repeatedly , among other issues like never put your finger on the trigger , and an important one is never brandish a weapon unless you plan on shooting .

Be careful the idea that 25 would stand up and have a hollywood shootout , everyone firing wildly about . It doesnt happen that way.

As for those signs in the US, there are many places you cannot carry a weapon. Church (changed in Utah recently -well duh..) post office , govt bldg's, and private businesses ban them too. But that is the funny thing....it is called CCW for a reason. Carry Concealed Weapon. If concealed, then no one knows.

Never fired a gun , well a real gun and BB's and 22's dont count . Not even a fan of guns. Run through backwoods where I know there are bears but I dont care.

But they (Yanks) have the 2A and a right to do so.

Edited April 16, 2008 by guyser

[Newfie Canadian]

Shooting loons is against the law here. Oh, not the bird huh....jk

If 25 of them are carrying concealed, 23 of them will bolt out the door with the rest of the group, but one or two will engage the bad guy. And likely....likely one of them will have taken position to do deadly harm instead of random firing.

See, that's a big assumption. One would presume that if one wanted to carry a weapon, he/she would want to use it in such a scenario.

The 2nd amendment carries with it the responsibility (not legally written) to know your backdrop.You (gunowner) are trained in that repeatedly , among other issues like never put your finger on the trigger , and an important one is never brandish a weapon unless you plan on shooting .

I've been doing some research on this. From what I can see, not every state that has some form of right to carry laws requires training for the use of the weapon although in all fairness a vast majority do. I'm not absolutely, 100% certain about these facts, so I'm willing to be corrected.

Be careful the idea that 25 would stand up and have a hollywood shootout , everyone firing wildly about . It doesnt happen that way.

Ah, but it could.

But they (Yanks) have the 2A and a right to do so.

True enough.

[GostHacked]

That's an interesting premise.

Let's say a loon walks into a school cafeteria (into what we'll call for want of a better term a 'target rich environment') filled with, I don't know, 150 students. Let's say for argument sake, that 25 of them are carrying concealed weapons and have no qualms about using them. They all haul out there weapons and fire at the loon. How many innocent souls are these all but deputized students going to extinguish?

If the Loon started shooting and all 25 of them happened to focus their aim on said loon, to me, having a gun helped avoid a bigger crisis.

One thing to think about is that not everyone who carries a concealed weapon is a loon. But by the same note, many police officers carry weapons on their hips, out in the open, some of them should not be holding a gun.

It all comes down to the person posessing the weapon.

[guyser]

See, that's a big assumption. One would presume that if one wanted to carry a weapon, he/she would want to use it in such a scenario.

An assumption yes, based on some readings as I am a fan of a gun site I frequent.

But lets look at human nature. We are born with fight or flight built into us. With a gun we do change the pattern a bit, but I doubt by much. So in your scenario there are 25 armed people in a cafeteria , lets assume then that half of them are near exits of some kind. Nature says most use it and get out of harms way. You have, I would expect, witnessed videos of cops being shot at. And what do they all do? Duck for cover if they can. Behind a door, car door, exit door. My point being they too flee the carnage if only to get safe cover to fire back at the perp. It makes sense, we all want to live and frankly better someone else die than me.

A lot of people who have guns , in fact pretty much every single one , do not want to kill anyone let alone a bad guy.They may shed no tear for a BG being killed, but no one likes doing it, save for the warriors who chime in with "blow him away"....always after the fact.

The point is if one has an exit strategy, they use it, gun or no gun.To use the gun on a BG means one is engaged in an activity that will cost them plenty of money (lawyers and perhaps a civil suit) should their "shot" go wrong. Or face charges themselves.

I've been doing some research on this. From what I can see, not every state that has some form of right to carry laws requires training for the use of the weapon although in all fairness a vast majority do. I'm not absolutely, 100% certain about these facts, so I'm willing to be corrected.

IIRC the only one I can think of that doesnt is New Hampshire....or is it Vermont. ONe of those anyway, totally free state.

The rules are so screwy even legal owners get into hot water , and I recently read where the gunshops screwed up too, losing their entire stock to the BATFE.

I dont know the regs apart from minor ones. Like, dont saw the barrel, dont convert to full auto, and dont shoot your wife with your own gun. Borrow your friends.

[guyser]

If the Loon started shooting and all 25 of them happened to focus their aim on said loon, to me, having a gun helped avoid a bigger crisis.

Never goes down that way. Think about videos of night club shootings. Plenty of people are carrying (illegally mind you) and when the shots are heard the stampede for the door erupts. No difference on a campus.

Self preservation.

[Melanie_]

I wonder how comfortable I would feel bringing students into my office to talk about their grades, if I knew that they just might be carrying a weapon with them. And if they asked for extensions? I might be pretty tolerant of late papers all of a sudden!

[guyser]

I wonder how comfortable I would feel bringing students into my office to talk about their grades, if I knew that they just might be carrying a weapon with them. And if they asked for extensions? I might be pretty tolerant of late papers all of a sudden!

That would be an irrational fear Melanie. Any whacknut student of yours could do that anyway. Gun owners in the US are very worried about any felony charges since they would lose the right to own guns.

Besides, any student in a shooting club has access on site (with heavy restrictions mind you) to guns.

It isnt the legal people you need worry about.Thats proven by Mr Cho from Virginia Tech.

[Melanie_]

Thanks, Guyser, I feel so much better now!!

I don't know how many meetings, memos, committees, etc my little Ivory Tower of Academia has devoted to the issue of gun violence on campus, but my general feeling is lets not have guns around. I know, if someone is going to go postal they will find a way to do it, but having more guns just seems to invite more opportunity. We're also talking about a demographic where there are thousands of late adolescent/early adult males, trying to impress each other with how tough they are (you can tell the really tough ones by the number of creative ways they find to use the word "fuck" in every sentence). It just feels like a disaster waiting to happen.

[Peter F]

I think I'd rather be in cafeteria with only one loon shooting...makes choosing a tackle or an exit soooo much easier.

[Guest American Woman]

I think I'd rather be in cafeteria with only one loon shooting...makes choosing a tackle or an exit soooo much easier.

A tackle isn't easy when you have a loon with a semi-automatic weapon shooting randomly at anyone or anything that moves. Neither is choosing an exit, which is why the death toll was so high at Va Tech. I remember reading an account of a woman who survived a McDonald's shooting some time back. She had a gun in her car since she wasn't permitted to bring it into McDonald's and she said she just kept thinking of that gun and how if only she'd had it on her she could have ended the massacre, which in the end took 21 lives.

I'm not advocating being allowed to carry guns on universities, because I don't know what the answer is to this problem we are experiencing. I know we can't allow kids who are still in school to carry guns to school to protect themselves. My gut feeling tells me allowing university students to carry guns on campus isn't the answer, even though I think those who would do so only if allowed by law could/should be considered law abiding citizens and therefore not a danger. I am concerned about what one could/would do in the heat of the (a) moment, though. I don't see myself feeling comfortable walking around a campus where anyone could be carrying a gun. I especially wouldn't feel comfortable if I encountered a heated argument under such circumstances.

Edited April 17, 2008 by American Woman

[White Doors]

I wonder how comfortable I would feel bringing students into my office to talk about their grades, if I knew that they just might be carrying a weapon with them. And if they asked for extensions? I might be pretty tolerant of late papers all of a sudden!

lol, but they may be thinking the same thing, because you would have a right to pack heat too.

[margrace]

I have a grandson who is a great kid but he also had ADD, he does first and thinks after. I wouldn't want him running around with a gun.

[White Doors]

I have a grandson who is a great kid but he also had ADD, he does first and thinks after. I wouldn't want him running around with a gun.

touche, and I wouldn't want you running around with a gun either.

In fact, people like you are the biggest argument for birth gun control that there is.

fortunately there is a licensing process that would disallow you from carrying a gun.

[Melanie_]

lol, but they may be thinking the same thing, because you would have a right to pack heat too.

Student: You marked my paper wrong! Don't you know anything?

Me: Are you feeling lucky, punk? Go ahead, make my day!