Patrick Roy

[DangerMouse]

I played the game till I was 45. I had lots of fights over the years ,but I never used my stick as a weopon and I never brutalized anyone I had at my mercy nor did I punch anyone who did not indicate we had a mutual agreement. By the way I think I lost more than I won. But what the Roy kid did was assault! No question about it and it was disgraceful. The other Kid never left his crease. He just stood there showing no indication of being a willing participant. Roy should be charged by authoritys the same as if he mugged you or I on the street.

I agree! He was also showing off! My uncle says he was trying to look tough and hotshot for all the girls--to me it was a disgrace and I hope they throw the book at him! Someone earlier said the Bertuzzi incident wasn't a fight but it was an act of violence. He broke Steve Moore's neck for "crying out loud!"

[bush_cheney2004]

Perhapsthey should ban skates or make the sticks out of nerf material....afterall, more people have died from stick injuries and skate cuts than fighting.

I think they should be sporting handguns.....you know, like airline pilots. Fighting would become more interesting!

[guyser]

I played the game till I was 45. I had lots of fights over the years ,but I never used my stick as a weopon and I never brutalized anyone I had at my mercy nor did I punch anyone who did not indicate we had a mutual agreement. By the way I think I lost more than I won. But what the Roy kid did was assault! No question about it and it was disgraceful. The other Kid never left his crease. He just stood there showing no indication of being a willing participant. Roy should be charged by authoritys the same as if he mugged you or I on the street.

It is assault as much as a body check would be. Cant go around randomly hitting people on the street.

The lousy thing about Jr. Roy's actions were he did not indicate he was truly going to scrap with the other goalie until he was right on top of him. He tried to sucker punch him as it were.

His father on the other hand, what a piece of lying shite he is. Denies he motioned for his kid to scrap? Uh...Patrick what then were you doing waving your kid to the other end of the ice? Did you want him to kiss the goalie?

Put it in context folks. Yes Jr and Sr should have been suspended longer. But the simple fact is that this is a rare occurence in hockey. The game was far more violent years ago and they have cleaned it up. Stick swinging was almost commonplace but now that virtually never happens.Search the archives of the WHL for info on those.

When is the last time you heard about a bench clearing brawl in Hockey? Now think about baseball, they occur all the time, and in spring training too ! Is it against the rules in baseball? Yes it is and yet it still happens.

Baseball is such a violent sport. Ban it for the children , and put those players in jail, charged with assualt.

[White Doors]

I played the game till I was 45. I had lots of fights over the years ,but I never used my stick as a weopon and I never brutalized anyone I had at my mercy nor did I punch anyone who did not indicate we had a mutual agreement. By the way I think I lost more than I won. But what the Roy kid did was assault! No question about it and it was disgraceful. The other Kid never left his crease. He just stood there showing no indication of being a willing participant. Roy should be charged by authoritys the same as if he mugged you or I on the street.

I am FOR willing fighting in the game and I agree with this.

What happened in this incident was not fighting, it was an assault.

ban fighting? won't help this situation, this wasn't a fight.

Sure way to get rid of hockey fights? ban hockey.

what is it with people wanting to 'ban' all these things lately?

a cultural phenomenon? Have we banned murder yet? I know it's illegal, but have we banned it? I not, i think we should. Surely this is the way to get rid of it. ban it.

[Rue]

I agree with Mouse that what Roy did was completely idiotic and needs to be soundly dealt with. It was trash. He deliberately sent his son out. Why? His son is a very bad third string goalie. If his son is suspended its no big deal. If the guy his fool son went after is suspended, they take out that team's first stringer. All that was, was a deliberate tactic to take out through suspensions some of the other team's stars so Roy's team could win. Its not a matter of winning fairly, its a matter of using suspensions to manipulate the playing field.

Now as for fighting in general, hockey is a body contact sport. Take out the body contact and the sport ends. It is that simple. when players fight, most often, they are only releasing pent up energy from the body contact. No one gets hurt, the refs come in fast, and quite frankly not much happens.

The kind of fights where someone is injured are few and far between and its not from fighting, its from players who won't fight and instead take cheap head shots, use their stick and kick with their skates.

Players who fight are not ruining the game, its players who are too cowardly to fight or hit a man cleanly on the boards.

The problem is players are not learning to play the body properly and cleanly. If they did, you would not have all these high sticks and head injuries. However we bring children up with cages and discourage body contact so they get their energy out with the cheap shots.

I coached high school. Believe me kids who hit cleanly and play the body are not the problem. Its the cowards who won't. Also the problem is the parents acting like fools. A kid who plays hard and clean doesn't injure anyone. Its their dumb parents screaming in the stands.

I went to John Ferguson's hockey school. He never let anyone fight but he expected us to play clean and hard. So did Gump Worsley the other grouch with him.

Don't confuse fighting with this baboon behaviour. The giving the finger to the fans, the bench clearing, that's not fighting, that is theatrics. Its not the same at all. A legitimate coach does not allow that.

Some of you just don't understand hockey. Should your kid fight, no. Of course not. We should not encourage it. But we need to teach kids how to play the body cleanly and keep the stick down.

If kids fight, they get penalties and we don't condone it. When you get to Jr. A if you are good enough, at that level the intensity is such there will be fights. However clean fights are not the problem. Its dumb coaches exploiting the fight aspect to engage in theatrics to gain an edge.

Remember Colorado and the Bertuzzi incident? Had Bertuzzi had a clean fight and faced the player, there would have been no problem. He chose instead to jump him from behind. That was the problem. It wasn't the fighting, it was the cheap theatrical stunt of attacking him from behind.

In retrospect Bertuzzi would be the first to admit that. The actual injury is the result of sheer idiocy but it should not be confused with a clean fight.

There used to be a code with fighting and the player who knew he won would stop. Today's players have not been taught this code of honour.

[Wilber]

The game was far more violent years ago and they have cleaned it up. Stick swinging was almost commonplace but now that virtually never happens.Search the archives of the WHL for info on those.

I'm not so sure. It is just as violent in a different manner. True, there is less general stick work and bench clearing brawls are a rarity but there seem to be far more elbows and cross checks to the head area and deliberately trying to drive someones head through the glass than there used to be. Can you imagine the game being played the way it is today without helmets?

I was re watching some of the 72 Summit series games not too long ago. I can think of only three Canadian players who wore helmets. Sure there was a lot of clutching, grabbing and hooking that would be an instant penalty in todays game but few if any of the vicious checks into the boards that seem so commonplace today.

[guyser]

I'm not so sure. It is just as violent in a different manner. True, there is less general stick work and bench clearing brawls are a rarity but there seem to be far more elbows and cross checks to the head area and deliberately trying to drive someones head through the glass than there used to be. Can you imagine the game being played the way it is today without helmets?

I was re watching some of the 72 Summit series games not too long ago. I can think of only three Canadian players who wore helmets. Sure there was a lot of clutching, grabbing and hooking that would be an instant penalty in todays game but few if any of the vicious checks into the boards that seem so commonplace today.

I think you are confusing the issue wilbur. Fighting and stick work is down , as are elbows to the head.

I agree that some of the injuries from head shots are problematic, but I dont think those are worse because of the anger of players or along those lines. I feel due to bigger harder pads (bullet proof plastic), bigger heavier players the result is harder hits.

As for the 72 Series, hard to use that as a comparison since the Canucks tried to run them but realized the Russkies were stronger and in better shape than the CDNS.

Vicious checks into the boards has decreased as is hitting from behind.

Edited March 31, 2008 by guyser

[AngusThermopyle]

It appears that the topic has wandered again. Back to topic.

What this kid did was simply unacceptable. You could spend hours trying to justify it but in the end it is what it is and no amount of rationalization will change that. The problem as I see it is with the punishment. as has been said already its no more than a slap on the wrist and sends entirely the wrong message to both players and fans.

Sometimes I wonder if Hockey will go the way Soccer did. You know, riots and deaths, open warfare between fans of different teams. A guy in Calgary recently got the crap kicked out of him because he was walking down the street wearing an Oilers shirt. Then we have the disgracefull displays by fans when other countries anthems are played. It could be said these are isolated incidents, but when I think back it seams that these kinds of incidents were non existent in past years.

[guyser]

Sometimes I wonder if Hockey will go the way Soccer did. You know, riots and deaths, open warfare between fans of different teams. A guy in Calgary recently got the crap kicked out of him because he was walking down the street wearing an Oilers shirt. Then we have the disgracefull displays by fans when other countries anthems are played. It could be said these are isolated incidents, but when I think back it seams that these kinds of incidents were non existent in past years.

If you think back, and research, you will find these things were commonplace. They are far more rare than before.

[AngusThermopyle]

Not sure if I can agree with you there guyser. Since I came out to Alberta it seems that all I've heard about is hockey related trouble. Things such as fans trashing entire downtown streets and so on. Then there's the whole issue of the totally disgracefull practice of booing National Anthems, thats one thing that for damn sure didn't happen in the past.

[guyser]

Not sure if I can agree with you there guyser. Since I came out to Alberta it seems that all I've heard about is hockey related trouble. Things such as fans trashing entire downtown streets and so on. Then there's the whole issue of the totally disgracefull practice of booing National Anthems, thats one thing that for damn sure didn't happen in the past.

Well there is your problem...you moved to alberta. jk

Fans have and will trash streets after winning championships, it is to some degree expected in certain places. But thats violence against property, not generally directed to other fans. Much of it can be attributed to the availability of news/video too.

As for national anthems, that I kind of agree with you. But frankly I have never seen the neccessity to play any anthem and find it kind of dumb. Perhaps in Int'l , country vs country sports, but every night at NHL MLB etc ? Do away with it.

I only recall hearing about booing anthems in Que, BC and in some states.

[M.Dancer]

I think the pregame rituals are too short. National anthem? How about God Save the Queen? How about everyone recite the lord's Prayer before a game. ....Try fighting after you have asked Jesus (He would play goal, for obvious reasons) to forgive your sins as you forgive the others....

[Wilber]

I dunno, the part where the guy singing the anthem at Canuck games stops, holds up the mike and lets the crowd finish it on their own is now part of the game. Just like fighting eh. I remember when Oh Canada was sung at the beginning of every event and the Queen at the end. Anyone else?

Edited April 2, 2008 by Wilber

[M.Dancer]

I dunno, the part where the guy singing the anthem at Canuck games stops, holds up the mike and lets the crowd finish it on their own is now part of the game. Just like fighting eh. I remember when Oh Canada was sung at the beginning of every event and the Queen at the end. Anyone else?

Not in Montreal. At the end it's been for years something like

Nah nah nah ..nah ay oh oh Good Bye....

More so this year....

[Black Dog]

There is no better way of curtailling the actions of a dirty player than by sending an enforcer after him.

Except it almost never happens that way. The majority of the time these so-called enforcers drop the gloves, it's in a carefully planned bout with the other team's enforcer, at which point fighting ceases to be part of the game and become theatre.

Nor do I see how anyone could simultaneously claim fighting is both safe and an effective deterrent. In order for it to be a deterrent, there has to be some reason for a dirty player to reconsider his actions. If it's not the prospect of serious physical harm, what is it? Finally, a dirty player who is challenegd will do one of two things: answer the bell (which would indicate he is not actually afraid of fighting and thus unlikely to adjust his play accordingly) or turn turtle (which means he literally ducks any real punishment and is thus unlikely to adjust his play).

If having an enforcer actually works, it's because the idea that enforcers are an effective deterrent is so deeply ingrained in the culture of the game that people take it for granted and act accordingly, even though there's no compelling evidence or rational reason to believe that is the case.

All that being said, I don't think you can get fighting out of the game altogether. There's nothing wrong with a spirited bout that results from intensity and tempers running high. It's the pre-scripted stuff

that bugs me. Edited April 2, 2008 by Black Dog

[August1991]

All that being said, I don't think you can get fighting out of the game altogether. There's nothing wrong with a spirited bout that results from intensity and tempers running high. It's the pre-scripted stuff

that bugs me.

WTF? Why didn't the referees stop these guys fighting?

Sorry if I sound naive (I haven't read this thread - I only entered because I saw a Black Dog post, always worth a read and sadly rare now) but I thought referees gave out penalties for fighting, or roughing or whatever they call it.

(And what kind of website has a name like hockeyfights.com?)

Edited April 2, 2008 by August1991

[guyser]

WTF? Why didn't the referees stop these guys fighting?

Because there is nothing to stop. The refs know once a punch is thrown then they have them for 2 or 5 minutes. The dance beforehand is not against the rules.

The refs jump in when one person goes down or when one person is tired and they normally (combatants) signal or telll the ref they are done.

(And what kind of website has a name like hockeyfights.com?)

Don Cherry? ...close, his is Rock 'em Sock 'em. Made millions from the videos.

[FTA Lawyer]

WTF? Why didn't the referees stop these guys fighting?

Sorry if I sound naive (I haven't read this thread - I only entered because I saw a Black Dog post, always worth a read and sadly rare now) but I thought referees gave out penalties for fighting, or roughing or whatever they call it.

(And what kind of website has a name like hockeyfights.com?)

I've been the linesman for some ex-NHL'er heavyweight fights in a senior men's league in Alberta. When two guys like this square off, you wait until they are too tired to lift their arms...otherwise you get your ass kicked by an errant hay-maker!

In my opinion, post #20 answers it all...hockey fights as we're discussing them are part of the North American marketing scheme...not truly an inherent part of the game. I personally have no problem with fighting...I did plenty of it when I played...but I followed the honor code that has been spoken of in other posts.

My opponent always knew he was going to be my opponent (ie no jumping from behind), I almost always agreed with my opponent that we'd both remove our helmets first, if my opponent went down (too tired or hurt) then the fight was over, and I never once did a dance or a motion to the crowd after winning a fight...just skated off the ice. For the most part, I got the same courtesy in return.

I can truly say that even in the rare bench-brawls that we got into, nothing came out of a hockey fight in my career that was as bad as the incidents of hitting from behind or cross-checking or highsticking to the face etc. that happened on a fairly regular basis.

FTA

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

WTF? Why didn't the referees stop these guys fighting?

Generally speaking, fighting is tolerated because it is meant to be an outlet for anger/revenge instead of the retaliatory cheap shot. Fighting happens spontaneously most times, sometimes it is 'staged' (or ordered, and in some cases even forbidden, by a coach), and sometimes it is used to rally a team that is down, or intimidate a team that is up. Jarome Iginla will sometimes try to rally his team by showing 'leadership' through dropping the gloves, and sometimes it backfires. there was an old saying in Junior, "We lost the game, but won all the fights". I never played Junior, but did play for DeVry, and there were 'twists' pretty much every game.

What I object to is the involvement of the law in sports. It is (and should be) basically suspended for the duration of a hockey game. There are rules and penalties that cover pretty much everything, they just need to be enforced. What happened with the Roy incident was ridiculous, and they should receive harsh suspensions, but there is no reason for the law to be involved.

[Black Dog]

What I object to is the involvement of the law in sports. It is (and should be) basically suspended for the duration of a hockey game. There are rules and penalties that cover pretty much everything, they just need to be enforced. What happened with the Roy incident was ridiculous, and they should receive harsh suspensions, but there is no reason for the law to be involved.

I agree for the most part except in those rare cases like the Bertuzzi and Brashear incidents where the actions went beyond the parameters of acceptable violence and into base thuggery.