If We'd Just Stop Killing Them Over There...

[Shady]

At least, that's what someone around here kept telling me. Well, apparently now the big guy isn't so mad about the killing as he is about the drawing.

Bin Laden warns EU over Prophet cartoons

DUBAI (Reuters) - Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden threatened the European Union with grave punishment on Wednesday for publication of cartoons mocking Islam's Prophet Mohammad.

In an audio recording posted on the Internet coinciding with the birthday of Islam's founder, bin Laden said the drawings, considered offensive by Muslims, were part of a "new crusade" in which Pope Benedict was involved.

"Your publications of these drawings -- part of a new crusade in which the Pope of the Vatican had a significant role -- is a confirmation from you that the war continues," said the Saudi-born militant leader, addressing "those who are wise at the European Union".

Link

So Bin Laden is going to tell all of us, what we can or cannot draw in our own countries. Not only that, the Danish cartoons were part of a conspiracy in which the Pope was somehow involved. I'm suprised he didn't throw in the Jews and George Bush just to elevate his conspiracy to an almost unsurpassable level.

[DogOnPorch]

So Bin Laden is going to tell all of us, what we can or cannot draw in our own countries. Not only that, the Danish cartoons were part of a conspiracy in which the Pope was somehow involved. I'm suprised he didn't throw in the Jews and George Bush just to elevate his conspiracy to an almost unsurpassable level.

It gets to be a bit like a game of Clue.

Mr bin Laden in the conservatory with a cartoonist's pen.

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A satisfied customer.... We should have him stuffed.

---Basil Fawlty

[August1991]

In this world, with modern technology - airplanes and Internet- we are all likely to bounce into each other.

Osama bin Laden, Iranian muftis, Chinese dictators, African strongmen and Korean nutjobs cannot control modern communication. There are too many cellphones and satelites.

----

IOW, America cannot stop having an effect on the world's dictatorships. America = Freedom. America's technology (cell phones, Internet) means that everyone in the world has access to Freedom.

America cannot stop "killing them over there" anymore than America can disengage from the world and isolate itself. Sorry. You Americans innovate and create new things. Some in the rest of the world adopt your new ideas and other foreigners blame Americans for the changes. Whatever happens, America is part of this world.

[Brain Candy]

I think in a way this addresses a wider spread problem of the modern age: everybody is connected, and everybody assumes everybody else does or should think along the same lines as them.

[jbg]

I think in a way this addresses a wider spread problem of the modern age: everybody is connected, and everybody assumes everybody else does or should think along the same lines as them.

I htink we have a serious hypocrisy issue here that no one wants to address. The Third, read Muslim world demands inclusiveness, open borders, EC membership for Turkey, UN aid, etc. On the other hand, they have no respect for Western openness, even inside Western countries such as Denmark. I have raised the issue of hypocrisy before, in connection with "outrage" over Israel, but no similar outrage over real atrocities such as Tibet, Dharfur, Zimbabwe.

And while we're at it, where is the assistance for (Muslim) earthquake victims from the oil producing (mostly Muslim) OPEC countries?

[Borg]

At least, that's what someone around here kept telling me. Well, apparently now the big guy isn't so mad about the killing as he is about the drawing.

Who ever told you that is full of schitzen - suspect you already know that - just had to say it.

Borg

[Borg]

I htink we have a serious hypocrisy issue here that no one wants to address. The Third, read Muslim world demands inclusiveness, open borders, EC membership for Turkey, UN aid, etc. On the other hand, they have no respect for Western openness, even inside Western countries such as Denmark. I have raised the issue of hypocrisy before, in connection with "outrage" over Israel, but no similar outrage over real atrocities such as Tibet, Dharfur, Zimbabwe.

And while we're at it, where is the assistance for (Muslim) earthquake victims from the oil producing (mostly Muslim) OPEC countries?

Well if one does address it, they tend to be called racists.

muslims helping muslims?

Now that in itself is a laugh.

Tribe before flag and the rest be damned - they are more cunning, hard and heartless than most in the west are willing to admit or to see. Perhaps someday - by then far too late.

Borg

[jbg]

Well if one does address it, they tend to be called racists.

muslims helping muslims?

Now that in itself is a laugh.

Tribe before flag and the rest be damned - they are more cunning, hard and heartless than most in the west are willing to admit or to see. Perhaps someday - by then far too late.

Borg

Borg, I think it's time for the West to start pounding away on this issue. Don't you?

[Borg]

Borg, I think it's time for the West to start pounding away on this issue. Don't you?

I will let you know when I return from my whole year of fun in the sun - unfortunately no beaches - just rocks and sand. If all goes well I should return hale and hearty in the summer of '09.

The west will not do this. You can pick your own reasons why.

Borg

Edited March 24, 2008 by Borg

[August1991]

muslims helping muslims?

Now that in itself is a laugh.

I lived for several years in the Middle East and I have travelled across the Maghreb, around Saudi Arabia, I've been to Tehran and Malaysia - to name a few. One would be hard pressed to find people who, by culture or nature, are as generous or hospitable as Arabs. Islam is also a remarkably egalitarian religion.

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The premise of the OP is that if we leave Arabs in the ME alone, then they will leave us alone. (One of the reasons Osama bin Laden gave for launching his attacks on the US was the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia.)

I find all of this naive.

Let me pick one example. For centuries, foreign tourists have been travelling to Egypt. (IMHO, Egypt is arguably the most fascinating tourist destination in the world.) Contact between East and West is not new. (You can read Somerset Maugham short stories for one viewpoint of this history.) In the past few decades however, the number of these contacts has exploded. Sharm El-Sheikh is like a Florida beach. Ordinary Westerners now travel to Egypt, these Westerners speak to ordinary Egyptians and treat them in the Western way, as equals. This often leads to much confusion, sometimes conflict, clashes and a retreat behind a mental barricade.

Whether US troops or western tourists, Western culture (a culture of individual freedom) is going to continue to infiltrate all cultures around the world. In practical military terms, the US cannot disengage from the rest of the world.

We simply cannot avoid offending or insulting others. Since Western culture encourages individual expression, it is by nature offensive. And so we can't stop insulting them over there...

Edited March 24, 2008 by August1991

[gc1765]

And while we're at it, where is the assistance for (Muslim) earthquake victims from the oil producing (mostly Muslim) OPEC countries?

You mean like Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE, which all pledged more per capita than the U.S. after the 2004 earthquake/tsunami??

[gc1765]

We simply cannot avoid offending or insulting others. Since Western culture encourages individual expression, it is by nature offensive. And so we can't stop insulting them over there...

Maybe not, but we can certainly minimize it. Not invading Iraq would have been a good start...

[Peter F]

Maybe not, but we can certainly minimize it. Not invading Iraq would have been a good start...

ah but the insults of Al Queda not only killed/injured many, they also wounded American pride. Action needed to be taken to redress that. Osama's organization was dealth with in Afghanistan and the WoT...but there was still the matter of Pride to be settled.

[GostHacked]

The premise of the OP is that if we leave Arabs in the ME alone, then they will leave us alone. (One of the reasons Osama bin Laden gave for launching his attacks on the US was the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia.)

I find all of this naive.

Let me pick one example. For centuries, foreign tourists have been travelling to Egypt....

You should know the difference between stationed troops and tourists. Nowhere does Bin laden say he is upset about the tourists. He is pissed at the troops for being in Saudi Arabia. I really do not think he is talking about how civilians are influencing those cultures in those countries they visit.

Whether US troops or western tourists, Western culture (a culture of individual freedom) is going to continue to infiltrate all cultures around the world. In practical military terms, the US cannot disengage from the rest of the world. So Bin Laden is pissed about foreign troops stationed in Saudi Arabia.

When in Rome do as the Romans do. Not your country, so you cannot follow your own rules in another country. That alone will get you into much much trouble. Once you understand that then the following is pointless.

We simply cannot avoid offending or insulting others. Since Western culture encourages individual expression, it is by nature offensive. And so we can't stop insulting them over there...

Know the rules of the country you are visiting and you will minimize the problems that you will encounter. If you are visiting a friends house do you follow your own rules or do you repsect the homeowner and follow their rules?? And if you did not like the rules, then you have no business being there in the first place.

[jbg]

You mean like Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE, which all pledged more per capita than the U.S. after the 2004 earthquake/tsunami??

First of all were those pledges honored? I don't think so.

Second of all, there's not very many "capita" in those countries. Given their obscene excess wealth you'd expect much more help.

[jbg]

ah but the insults of Al Queda not only killed/injured many, they also wounded American pride.

Far more than pride. We left WTC I, Khobar Towers, the Embassy and USS Cole attacks mostly unredressed and we got a much blacker eye than injury to our pride; we got the September 11 attacks.

[Peter F]

Far more than pride. We left WTC I, Khobar Towers, the Embassy and USS Cole attacks mostly unredressed and we got a much blacker eye than injury to our pride; we got the September 11 attacks.

America attacked the wrong country...Saudi Arabia - but Saudi Arabia hadn't insulted the USofA - Saddam Hussien did.

[bush_cheney2004]

America attacked the wrong country...Saudi Arabia - but Saudi Arabia hadn't insulted the USofA - Saddam Hussien did.

Nope......America attacked the same country it has been attacking since 1991.

Practice makes perfect!

[Peter F]

Nope......America attacked the same country it has been attacking since 1991.

Practice makes perfect!

I know. But the guy just wouldn't give in!

[BC_chick]

I have raised the issue of hypocrisy before, in connection with "outrage" over Israel, but no similar outrage over real atrocities such as Tibet, Dharfur, Zimbabwe.

You question why Palestinians aren't as docile as the Tibetans, or Sudanese, yet you fail to acknowledge another perplexing question…

Why are you able to draw a parallel between “civilized and democratic” Israel and countries with less than stellar human-rights records such as Zimbabwe, Sudan and China?

[jbg]

Why are you able to draw a parallel between “civilized and democratic” Israel and countries with less than stellar human-rights records such as Zimbabwe, Sudan and China?

Th epoint is that they should be held to the same international standards that Israel and the US are. They shouldn't get a free pass.

[buffycat]

Th epoint is that they should be held to the same international standards that Israel and the US are. They shouldn't get a free pass.

Well, Israel and the US claim to be "democracies". They claim to be supporters of "human rights and egalitarianism", therein lies the bug, Rue. Hence the 'double standard'.

I am not saying that I agree with this, but when someone claims the 'moral high ground' - as both Israel, the US consistently do, then don't balk when someone points out your own shortcomings when it involves violations of basic humanitarian principles!!

Anyways, I've always found the practice of 'Well so and so is nastier than I, so that absovles me of responsibility' argument rather useless.

[jbg]

Well, Israel and the US claim to be "democracies". They claim to be supporters of "human rights and egalitarianism", therein lies the bug, Rue. Hence the 'double standard'.

I am not Rue.

I am not saying that I agree with this, but when someone claims the 'moral high ground' - as both Israel, the US consistently do, then don't balk when someone points out your own shortcomings when it involves violations of basic humanitarian principles!!

The point being is that I don't think the US and Israel have to take garbage from countries/peoples taking the moral low ground or a position of moral neutrality. The US and Israel have their faults; I am not of the school that I admire everything my country or an ally does. However, I want some consistency in judging their activities.

Anyways, I've always found the practice of 'Well so and so is nastier than I, so that absovles me of responsibility' argument rather useless.

Not sure I understand. Edited March 26, 2008 by jbg

[buffycat]

I am not Rue.

My apologies for that jbg, I had just read a bunch of Rue's writings and had him (obviously) on my mind.

The opint being is that I don't think the US and Israel have to take garbage from countries/peoples taking the moral low ground or a position of moral neutrality.

The US and Israel are criticised by many countries - not all of them tyrannies and dictatorships. Are you implying that ANY country who dares to speak up against Israeli and American foriegn policies and actions is 'taking' a moral 'lowground'? Or are you simply saying that the US and Israel can simply be intolerant of any criticism no matter where it comes from or how legitimate it is??

Clarify...

Not sure I understand.

That's no surprise. (though I think you are probably being deliberately obtuse).

[jbg]

My apologies for that jbg, I had just read a bunch of Rue's writings and had him (obviously) on my mind.

No apology needed, but it's accepted anyway.

The US and Israel are criticised by many countries - not all of them tyrannies and dictatorships. Are you implying that ANY country who dares to speak up against Israeli and American foriegn policies and actions is 'taking' a moral 'lowground'? Or are you simply saying that the US and Israel can simply be intolerant of any criticism no matter where it comes from or how legitimate it is??

Hardly. But where these countries leaders' that spend time criticizing the foreign and domestic policies of the US and Israel are to some extent "eating their own". The democracies would do better to stick together than look for an impossible level of perfection.

Clarify...

That's no surprise. (though I think you are probably being deliberately obtuse).

I figured it out. Sorry, I was rushing to work. Again, any day of the week I'd choose the US's or Israel's imperfection over the moral bankruptcy of many governments of the world (too many to list, but starting with Sudan or Iran wouldn't be a bad place to start). Heck, even Canada has some blots on its historical record.