Did the Holocaust really happen?

[Rue]

Well its just my opinion but I think the Holocaust was actually pretty unique. Sure other races have been persecuted but never before have we seen (to my knowledge) anything like the specialist people disposal industry that was set up to deal with the Jews. When you look into it you come to realize that efficiency was the watch word used by the Germans. They balanced the need for slave labour against efficient disposal in order to maximize both. No one else has ever done that before.

So, yes, I would say that is pretty damn unique.

Well you know I appreciate that Angus but then coming from you I have come to expect it if you know what I mean.

[Rue]

Socred asked the forum to show him where he has engaged in an anti-Jewish agenda.

I specifically ask you to read back the comments I have listed from Socred which deliberately fuse and make ambiguous the distinction between Jews as a people and the ideology of Zionism. I believe it is this fusion of the concept of the suffering of Jews with Zionism that demonstrates an anti-Jewish agenda by engaging in the promulgation of the corresponding stereotypes I believe are the intent of the comments. After listing these comments and what I believe are there corresponding stereotypes, I will then specifically point out why they are either false or misrepresentations of facts and do not as Socred said promote the “truth” but in fact his own personal feelings towards Jews.

“1-It's also a fact that the biggest single event which helped to establish the state of Israel is the "holocaust", so there is no doubt that Zionist interests have a vested interest in stifling all debate on the subject.(deliberate attempt to link Nazism to agenda of Zionism)

2-Seems the Nazis were interested in Zionism as well: Eichmann was then assigned to investigate possible "solutions to the Jewish question." He visited Palestine in 1937 to discuss the possibility of large scale immigration of Jews to the Middle East with Arab leaders. British authorities, however, ordered him out of the country. (false statement of fact) 3-One could argue that the best thing to ever happen to further the Zionist cause was the rise of the Nazis in Germany and the extermination of Jews in Europe. The state of Israel was formed shortly after. (intellectually dishonest attempt to link the holocaust and pain and suffering of victims to Zionist agenda) 4-The fact is that the Stern Gang allied themselves with the Nazis…

Seems to me that the Nazis were the best thing that ever happened in favour of the Zionist cause. (equating the suffering with Jews as a positive thing that Zionists support) (killing Jews makes Zionists rejoice with joy)

5-If Eichmann went before, then this demonstrates that the Nazis had Zionist aims before the war. (fallacious reasoning)

6-…the Stern gang collaborated with them (Nazis) in order to further Zionist goal. (statement of false fact)

7… Nazis sought to establish a Jewish state in Israel prior to the start of WWII? (statement of false fact)

8…Stern gang collaborated with the Nazis (repeated statement of false fact)

9.. Nazis were the best thing that ever happened to the Zionist cause.

10-There is a Zionist conspiracy to establish a Jewish state in Israel. Anyone but a retard would agree with me.(Zionists conspire) (anyone who does not use the word conspire when describing the creation of the state of Israel is a retard) 11- If you are a Jew, maybe you'll answer my question. What is a Jew? If converts to Judaism are Jews, what connection do they have to the land in Palestine? (converted Jews can’t have a religious connection to the state of Israel) 12-The point is that Jews are given citizenship in Israel based solely upon their religion. This citizenship is not granted to any other religion. (only a Jew can apply for citizenship in Israel) 13-What connection do those who practice Judaism have with the land in Israel that any other followers of the faiths of Abraham (Christianity and Islam) do not have? And why was a nation given to the practictioners of Judaism? And why do the practictioners of Judaism have preferential treatment in becoming a citizen of Israel?..(Jews are given preferential treatment in Israel) 14-Yes, the Nazis thought that Jews were a race, which also makes them similar to Zionists in another way. (Zionists are Nazis, Zionism is Nazism) 15-You will not get an honest debate on this issue, especially by those who believe they have a vested interest in protecting the state of Israel. (anyone who supports the existence of the State of Israel is a liar)

You want an honest debate Socred, tell me I am not trying to provide one.

In regards to statements 2,5 and 7 which suggest because Eichman went to Israel in 1937, the Nazis and Eichman were pro-Zionist and wanted to create a Jewish state, let us first start off with the obvious. Eichman’s role was to KILL as many Jews as efficiently as possible. What Socred attempts to do is revise history to suggest Eichman was benevolent to Jews and was a Zionist and only was prevented from Zionist goals because of the British. This is absolutely false and for Socred to go to a web-site, lift a sentence out of context with no further reference and then pass off as fact his unsunstantiated, unreferenced, baseless and subjective conclusions from it, is intellectually dishonest. It is intellectually dishonest I would contend to try pass off as fact one’s subjective opinion.

The source for the above false statement of facts is based on an article by Dr. Imad Mahmud Habib under the title : "The Zionist Nazi Alliance-Facts and Goals". Which argued that Jews were exterminated during the Holocaust by the Nazis upon requests by the Zionist leadership. . He argued that since 1933 an alliance was formed between Hitler and the Zionist movement in order to strengthen the Zionist foothold in Palestine and conspire against the Arabs. He contended a system of Nazi-Zionist cooperation allowed thousands of Jews to immigrate to Palestine and transfer more than DM 150 million there and that the Nazis transferred to different Zionist organizations blue prints for the production of machine guns, hand grenades etc. He goes so far as to state Arabs were killed by Zionists armed by Hitler and Himmler. It is in this article he refers to the Eichman visit to Palestine in 1937 and then claimed that later during his trial in Jerusalem, Eichman was instructed to remain silent on the nature of his contacts with the Zionist leaders.He also claims In 1939, Nazis provided military training to Jewish youth in Austria on their way to Palestine.

This is in fact what Socred is referring to and in my opinion couching and trying to pass off as fact. He did not reference the source of his alleged statement facts of Eichman’s intentions because to do so would lead us to the above article where they originated before they recirculated on Stormfront,the KKK, and other hate sites as well as the Hamas and Hezbollah web-sites and mainstream media in Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, etc., where this story has been run over and over again in papers, radio presentations and on t.v. and is often quoted in Iran.

For someone who claims he is interested in pursuing the truth then why doesn’t Socred come clean and admit where he got his conclusions from and where the Zionist-Nazi link comes from.

As for what actually happened Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who was eichman’s close friend and ardent supporter of Hitler and stayed as his guest through-out World War Two- Eichman did meet with one Haganah member but there was no alliance, no conspiracy, a simple brief encounter at which time Eichman tried to find out how many Jews were in Palestine. In fact he travelled there to discuss assisting the Mufti to support an Arab movement against the Jews. Immediately after Eichman left, a prolonged and organized campaign against Jews in Palestine was implemented by the Mufti with full support of the Nazis. Eichman was sent packing by the British not because he was collaborating with Zionists but because he deliberately was forming an alliance with Arabs to fight the British and French in the Middle East and of course the Mufti felt his mutual hatred of Jews would provide an excellent alliance with the Nazis.

In regards to statements 1,3 and 9 what Socred does is advance what I call an odious and discapable insinuation that Zionists are grateful 6 million Jews were slaughtered and that for the last 2,000 years Jews were persecuted because without such suffering they could not have created Israel.

Israel came about because of tragedy not opportunity and for Socred to suggest such is an ancient anti-semite canard which infers Jews benefit from anyone’s suffering even their own people’s. He can deny the connection and canard all he wants but you and I know saying the holocaust forced the Jews to Israel is one thing-saying it was a good thing for them, is another and absolutely despicable.

I can tell you right now, if Jews had a choice from living in freedom in Europe with no holocaust instead of Israel they would probably say yes but that would not be a bad thing nor would it necessarily have stopped a natural evolution of Jews to Palestine to start their own country.

To suggest Zionists should be grateful to Nazis for slaughtering 6 million Jews is deliberately hateful and taunts why Jews escaped to Israel and their motive for wanting to be free. Its as despicable as stating as fact that Nazis collaborated with Zionists when they never did, only now there is a positive mutual relationship between Zionists and Nazis through the suffering of the holocaust.,

In regards to Socred’s comments in 4 and 6 that the Stern Gang collaborated with the Nazis, this is absolutely and utterly false and comes from the same Nazi-Zionist link and article I mentioned above with Eichman.

What in fact happened was Stern the leader of the Lehi movement did discuss with a Nazi representative an alliance against Britain. Lehi which was a very small organization and admired Mussolini’s version of fascism was far from mainstream. It had about 42 members one who was Yithak Shamir who became Prime Minister of Israel.

To suggest it was representative of all Zionists which Socred has attempted to infer to advance the insinuation that Nazis collaborated with Zionists is bullshit. Not only was there no alliance but during World War Two, the Stern Gang openly fought against Nazis in the Middle East as well as the British and anyone else.

Anyone who would attempt to suggest because an extreme gang of right wingers represents Zionism and its mainstream activities is deliberately revising history and misrepresenting facts not to mention there was never any collaboration or alliance. Socred again tries to pass off as fact that the Stern gang allied themselves with the Nazis as fact. That is a complete and utter false statement. They never did and Socred relies on your ignorance to pass off his subjective remark as fact. You note he provides no reference to it just like he provides no reference to the alleged Eichman connection and collaboration.

So I now say unequivocally, Socred has passed off subjective remarks as facts-why? Why? What is the motive for someone to pretend a subjective remark is a substantiated fact?

You tell me what the motive is. I personally believe it is to incite hatred towards Jews and those who escaped the holocaust to Israel.

Comments 12 and 13 fuse religious concepts of Judaism with the law of return and are not true in any way shape or form. To start with, Zionism has nothing to do with race. The Zionism is Nazism is racism canard is old and its unoriginal and the only people who continue to rely on it are the usual ani-Jewish hate sites.Zionism does not define Jews as a race. All Zionism is, is the political movement of universal sufferage for Jews. It is the political belief Jews should have a federal state which institutionalizes Judaism as a state religion.

Let’s deal with the other false comments Socred promulgated that it confers unfair status to Jews. It does not. Muslims or Christians who are citizens of Israel have the identical legal rights as Jews. What he mixes up and erroneously presents is the law of return and internal laws of Israel. They are not the same. The Law of Return which allows Jews to apply for citizenship is not automatic precisely because there is a debate on who is a Jew and who is not. More to the point the state of Jordan has the identical law of return for Palestinians.

Socred can pretend all he wants that Jews are the only people with a state religious connection but that is an utter falsehood. Sharia Law creates all Muslim states as just that Islamic states and defines anyone who is NOT a Muslim as not being allowed to own property and condemned to live as second class citizens in the apartheid system of dhimmitude. In Israel which Socred would have us believe is racist, Muslims in Israel, unlike Jews in Islamic countries have full rights. All anyone has to do is compare the standard of living and legal rights of Islamic Israelis to Jews living in Muslim countries. You think Socred would do that?

I would contend Socred lost any credibility when he stated and I quote; “Christians don't have a country of their own. “ I am sure the Queen of England, head of the Church of England will find that interesting as would the link between Hindus and their government in India, all the Muslim states and their religion, the spiritual connection between the Tibetan peoples and their state and religion, and of course the many Orthodox Christian states such as Greece and Macedonia and Serbia to name but a few.

Socred made one other deliberately misleading comment when he stated “ This is absolutely false. Show me one nation on earth were you are granted citizenship based upon the sole fact that you are a Christian.”

No one stated that. What was stated was that there is a link between Christianity and state institutions and Islam and state institutions or the Hindu faith and the Indian state institution just as there is one in Israel so the question remains-why does Socred deny the obvious and attempt to state only Israel has a religion and state connection? Why? Why would he try deny the obvious? For what purpose? For what agenda does he single out Jews? Read the above question. Socred deliberately twisted what was said to suggest and infer that you become Israeli only because you are Jewish.

Even with the law of return, even if my being defined as a Jew expedites the citizenship acceptance process and fast tracks a Jew, it is not the sole criteria for citizenship.

What Socred also deliberately ignores is Jews were NEVER allowed citizenship in many European countries precisely because they were not Christian and that exclusion of not being Christian prevented them from escaping the holocaust and coming to Canada and the U.S.

Socred should look at the history of how Christian nations, and the lack of separation between Christianity and its states led to the massacre and repeated genocide of aboriginals, and was used as a pretence to use non Jews as cheap labour.

Lectures from Socred as to the legacy and history of the role of Christianity in state run institutions is greatly lacking for someone in pursuit of truth.

[Rue]

I always appreciate when the Angus' of the world remind me that we live in a different time where Jews need not be afraid of Christians or anyone else. That is why I took the time to provide the detailed responses to Socred. I would have done the exact same if someone said the same kinds of things about the holikidoe (Ukrainian massacre) or Armanian or any other massacre and its the same reason I do not say one of them makes the other less unique. They all have unique meaning not just to their survivors and the people of the groups targetted for extermination or persecution, but to all of us.

[WIP]

I always appreciate when the Angus' of the world remind me that we live in a different time where Jews need not be afraid of Christians or anyone else. That is why I took the time to provide the detailed responses to Socred. I would have done the exact same if someone said the same kinds of things about the holikidoe (Ukrainian massacre) or Armanian or any other massacre and its the same reason I do not say one of them makes the other less unique. They all have unique meaning not just to their survivors and the people of the groups targetted for extermination or persecution, but to all of us.

There is a segment of fundamentalist Christian leaders who openly display their indifference to the Holocaust (they don't deny it yet!) and clear hostility to the modern state of Israel, whom they blame for all of our problems with Arabs and Muslims today - Pat Buchanan would serve as flag-bearer.........but I think Jews should be a little less naive about the Christian Zionists who give them the warmest embrace, since they see Jews and Israel as pawns in a grand endtime struggle, and actively encourage the most extreme elements in Israel, like the Temple Movement.

I guess you can't be too choosy about who your friends are when you're a small minority living in a dangerous world, but the Jewish Neoconservatives may end up in the same mess as a hundred years ago, when Jewish intellectuals naively embraced Marxism and ended up purged from the Party and having their synagogues destroyed by Stalin.

Edited April 9, 2008 by WIP

[M.Dancer]

There is a segment of fundamentalist Christian leaders who openly display their indifference to the Holocaust (they don't deny it yet!) and clear hostility to the modern state of Israel, whom they blame for all of our problems with Arabs and Muslims today - Pat Buchanan would serve as flag-bearer.........

First off, most fundamentalist Christians are extremely pro Israel, and secondly, Pat Buchanan is not a fundy Christian leader.

[DogOnPorch]

There's some real whack-jobs at the very fringes of each religion. They all give me the 'willies'. I suppose it's how many of each actually occupy the fringe that counts. In some religions it seems like 'moderate' doesn't always add up to 'average'.

Good point re: Stalin. Trotsky viewed him as an uncultured idiot rather than the threat to his very life like he was.

-----------------------------------------

Insurrection is an art, and like all arts has its own laws.

---Leon Trotsky

Gratitude is a sickness suffered by dogs.

---Joseph Stalin

[WIP]

First off, most fundamentalist Christians are extremely pro Israel, and secondly, Pat Buchanan is not a fundy Christian leader.

The fundamentalist Christians who are pro-Israel are the premillianialists who see Israel playing a role in end time prophecy. The Dominionists and Christian Reconstructionists not only have a different take on prophecy, they also want to turn the tide on Dispensational Biblical history. They want a return to the traditional Covenant Theology that the Catholic Church and the mainline Protestant churches have - that the covenant with Israel ended at Pentecost. Therefore, Jews and Israel are just deniers of the Messiah, and that was the seed of Jewish persecution historically.

I know Pat Buchanan is a political pundit, but his books and editorial comments are steeped in religion. Among prominent church leaders, D. James Kennedy was the most prominent leader of Dominionist theology. Now that he's dead, I don't know who they consider to be their leader. But from previous experience in discussion forums, Dominionist thinkers like to quote Buchanan alot.

[M.Dancer]

The fundamentalist Christians who are pro-Israel are the premillianialists who see Israel playing a role in end time prophecy. The Dominionists and Christian Reconstructionists not only have a different take on prophecy, they also want to turn the tide on Dispensational Biblical history. They want a return to the traditional Covenant Theology that the Catholic Church and the mainline Protestant churches have - that the covenant with Israel ended at Pentecost. Therefore, Jews and Israel are just deniers of the Messiah, and that was the seed of Jewish persecution historically.

I know Pat Buchanan is a political pundit, but his books and editorial comments are steeped in religion. Among prominent church leaders, D. James Kennedy was the most prominent leader of Dominionist theology. Now that he's dead, I don't know who they consider to be their leader. But from previous experience in discussion forums, Dominionist thinkers like to quote Buchanan alot.

The dominionists and thew Sobeyists...what percentage of the fundies are they? 3%

Edited April 9, 2008 by M.Dancer

[Oleg Bach]

The dominionists and thew Sobeyists...what percentage of the fundies are they? 3%

First - fundy Christians are not Christians - real Christianity is based in brave rebellion and ice cold logic and bravey.....fundies are lunitics - Christ would have disowned the cowards who support the evil state of Rome...(Cheney) - really ...can you imagine...that Bush...was voted in by fundies...when Christianity was based on TRUTH...(reality)....now we all know that the Bushites are common liars and are very representative of the old Roman Empire that decayed in time.....so forget about giving fundies the noble lable of Christian..better to just call them cowards and traitors to the nation.

[WIP]

The dominionists and thew Sobeyists...what percentage of the fundies are they? 3%

Where does the 3% number come from? No one knows for sure how many there are because Domionists rarely venture out in the open and directly attack Christian Zionism, Dispensational theology, or the beliefs in end-time prophecy. They usually prefer to work in the shadows of the broader Christian Nationalist movement. But, in their defence, they feel that Dispensationalism, which really took hold after it was adopted by D.L. Moody, was a stealth heresy that overtook the mainstream understanding of Supersessionalism, or Replacement Theology. So, they see themselves as teachers who are turning churches back to the orthodox Christian worldview.

Since both groups are fixtures of the broader Christian Nationalist movement, they ususally focus on their common goals of Christian education and political activism, but every so often, they engage in a war of words over their differences - such as this response by the main Domionist group, the Chalcedon Institute, to charges made by Thomas Ice in his book: “Hal Lindsey, Dominion Theology, and Anti-Semitism,” Biblical Perspectives, 5:1 (Jan.–Feb., 1992):

Why Is This Charge Laid Before Us?

What is it that makes Ice set forth this charge? The theological “problem” is the doctrine known either as supersessionism or replacement theology. That is, the doctrine that teaches that the international Church has replaced national, racial Israel as the people of God..............

Ultimately, supersessionism is orthodox Christianity proclaiming that “[n]either is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). Supersession theology is exclusivistic in arguing: “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 3:11).........................

The belief that salvation is only through Jesus Christ is a denial and a rejection of the Torah, of Judaism and of the covenant that God made with Israel … Many Christian scholars have long realized that supersessionism … denies the legitimacy of the Torah …................

An article in a dispensationalist publication is especially interesting in that it is attacking Reconstructionism: “Passages such as Joel 3, Zechariah 12–14, and Revelation 16 indicate that Israel’s worst time will take place immediately before Christ’s physical return to earth at His Second Coming. At that time the armies of all the nations of the world will gather against Israel and Jerusalem … This future time of trouble for Israel will be so terrible that two-thirds of the Jews will perish (Zech. 13:8–9).”[14] John Walvoord agrees that “two-thirds of Israel in the land will perish.”[15]

Hal Lindsey speaks of these coming events, when dealing with Revelation 16: “This chapter closes with multiplied millions of soldiers slaughtering each other in and around Israel.”[16]

J. Dwight Pentecost teaches: “The Scriptures teach that the future judgment program will begin with a judgment upon the national Israel … It is evident from the passage just cited in Ezekiel, as well as the numerous passages dealing with Israel’s restoration, that this judgment will be upon all living Israel, all of whom are to be regathered and judged. Matthew 25:1–30 envisions a judgment on the entire nation.”[17]

If one believes this theology, then to urge Jews to return to Israel is sadistic.

http://www.chalcedon.edu/articles/article.php?ArticleID=32

[socred]

I believe it is this fusion of the concept of the suffering of Jews with Zionism that demonstrates an anti-Jewish agenda

What you believe, and what is the truth are obviously two mutally exclusive things.

Let's break down what you state.

1-It's also a fact that the biggest single event which helped to establish the state of Israel is the "holocaust", so there is no doubt that Zionist interests have a vested interest in stifling all debate on the subject.(deliberate attempt to link Nazism to agenda of Zionism)

So? How does that make me anti-Jewish. The holocaust was the best thing to ever happen to Zionism. The question posed is whether Zionism is the best thing for Jews?

2-Seems the Nazis were interested in Zionism as well: Eichmann was then assigned to investigate possible "solutions to the Jewish question." He visited Palestine in 1937 to discuss the possibility of large scale immigration of Jews to the Middle East with Arab leaders. British authorities, however, ordered him out of the country. (false statement of fact) 3-One could argue that the best thing to ever happen to further the Zionist cause was the rise of the Nazis in Germany and the extermination of Jews in Europe. The state of Israel was formed shortly after. (intellectually dishonest attempt to link the holocaust and pain and suffering of victims to Zionist agenda)

Nothing intellectually dishonest about what I said. The fact that Eichmann went to Isreal to investigate the establishment of a Zionist state in Palestine is an historical fact. It's also an historical fact that the state of Israel was establish shortly after the end of WWII based upon what the Nazis did to the Jews. Ergo, "one could argue Nazism was the best thing ever to happen to further the Zionist agenda. The facts are indisputable, and it's highly doubtful that Isreal would exist today if it were not for the holocaust.

4

-The fact is that the Stern Gang allied themselves with the Nazis…

Seems to me that the Nazis were the best thing that ever happened in favour of the Zionist cause. (equating the suffering with Jews as a positive thing that Zionists support) (killing Jews makes Zionists rejoice with joy

I never said killing Jews made the Zionists rejoice with joy. That is something that you've simply added and that is intellectually dishonest. I simply said the holocaust and the Nazis were the best thing that could happen to further the Zionist cause (which is true). I also said that Eichmann was himself a Zionist because he wanted to establish a Jewish state in Palestine (again, factually correct).

5-If Eichmann went before, then this demonstrates that the Nazis had Zionist aims before the war. (fallacious reasoning)

The Nazis did have Zionist ambitions before the war, and that is why Eichmann was dispatched to Palestine to determine if a Zionist state could be established there. Again, this is an historical fact.

6-…the Stern gang collaborated with them (Nazis) in order to further Zionist goal. (statement of false fact)

Perhaps you better check your "facts" before you accuse me of "false facts". In fact, this is rather comical, but I'm glad you took the time, because I do enjoy this.

"In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations."

Contact with Nazi authorities

7… Nazis sought to establish a Jewish state in Israel prior to the start of WWII? (statement of false fact)

Again, you better check your "facts".

"Eichmann was then assigned to investigate possible "solutions to the Jewish question." He visited Palestine in 1937 to discuss the possibility of large scale immigration of Jews to the Middle East with Arab leaders. British authorities, however, ordered him out of the country. "

Adolf Eichmann

10-There is a Zionist conspiracy to establish a Jewish state in Israel. Anyone but a retard would agree with me.(Zionists conspire) (anyone who does not use the word conspire when describing the creation of the state of Israel is a retard)

Do you not believe that people "conpired" to establish a Jewish state in Israel? I would suggest that if you don't, you are in fact "metally handicapped", or ill. Of course they had to conspire to establish the state, if the nobody conspired to establish Israel, it could have never been formed. Ergo, there is a Zionist conspiracy to establish a Jewish state in the land known as Israel. I think that's pretty much common sense, which it seems that you lack.

11- If you are a Jew, maybe you'll answer my question. What is a Jew? If converts to Judaism are Jews, what connection do they have to the land in Palestine? (converted Jews can’t have a religious connection to the state of Israel)

What connection to Israel do convert Jews have that convert Christians don't?

12-The point is that Jews are given citizenship in Israel based solely upon their religion. This citizenship is not granted to any other religion. (only a Jew can apply for citizenship in Israel)

You need to take a course in deductive logic. If I say all grass is green, does that mean that everything green is grass?

13-What connection do those who practice Judaism have with the land in Israel that any other followers of the faiths of Abraham (Christianity and Islam) do not have? And why was a nation given to the practictioners of Judaism? And why do the practictioners of Judaism have preferential treatment in becoming a citizen of Israel?..(Jews are given preferential treatment in Israel)

You really need to take a course in logic, because that's not what I was implying. I implied that Jews are given preferential treatment in becoming a citizen of Israel based upon the right of return law, and that's also a statement of fact.

14-Yes, the Nazis thought that Jews were a race, which also makes them similar to Zionists in another way. (Zionists are Nazis, Zionism is Nazism)

Again, better brush up on the deductive logic. Same fallacy as the "grass is green".

15-You will not get an honest debate on this issue, especially by those who believe they have a vested interest in protecting the state of Israel. (anyone who supports the existence of the State of Israel is a liar)

LMFAO. I would suggest at least starting with a university course in reasoning.

Eichman’s role was to KILL as many Jews as efficiently as possible. What Socred attempts to do is revise history to suggest Eichman was benevolent to Jews and was a Zionist and only was prevented from Zionist goals because of the British. This is absolutely false and for Socred to go to a web-site, lift a sentence out of context with no further reference and then pass off as fact his unsunstantiated, unreferenced, baseless and subjective conclusions from it, is intellectually dishonest. It is intellectually dishonest I would contend to try pass off as fact one’s subjective opinion

I've never had so many belly laughs, but I'm sure you believe the blather that you've written, so let's look at what you state. You state that Eichmann's only goal was to kill Jews. Then why would he go to Palestine to talk to Arabs about shipping Jews there? Was he going to kill the Jews and then transport them to Palestine? Or was he going to ship them to Isreal, and then transport the SS there to kill them?

The source for the above false statement of facts is based on an article by Dr. Imad Mahmud Habib under the title : "The Zionist Nazi Alliance-Facts and Goals".

The "source" for what statements? Which particular statement is sourced by this individual? I've never even heard of him.

This is in fact what Socred is referring to and in my opinion couching and trying to pass off as fact.

You know what they say about opinions.

He did not reference the source of his alleged statement facts of Eichman’s intentions

I referenced it every time I quoted it. And it's referenced in this post again.

because to do so would lead us to the above article where they originated before they recirculated on Stormfront,the KKK, and other hate sites as well as the Hamas and Hezbollah web-sites and mainstream media in Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, etc., where this story has been run over and over again in papers, radio presentations and on t.v. and is often quoted in Iran.

This is a comical joke. Again, click the link below for the reference. You will see that it is not a KKK, Stormfront or Arab site.

Adolf Eichmann

In regards to statements 1,3 and 9 what Socred does is advance what I call an odious and discapable insinuation that Zionists are grateful 6 million Jews were slaughtered and that for the last 2,000 years Jews were persecuted because without such suffering they could not have created Israel.

Why is it odious and "despicable"?

Israel came about because of tragedy not opportunity and for Socred to suggest such is an ancient anti-semite canard which infers Jews benefit from anyone’s suffering even their own people’s. He can deny the connection and canard all he wants but you and I know saying the holocaust forced the Jews to Israel is one thing-saying it was a good thing for them, is another and absolutely despicable.

I never said it was good for them. You certainly like to use strawmen in your arguments. Another reason for an introductory logic course.

In regards to Socred’s comments in 4 and 6 that the Stern Gang collaborated with the Nazis, this is absolutely and utterly false and comes from the same Nazi-Zionist link and article I mentioned above with Eichman.

Really, the site referenced is wikipedia. Would you like another?

Sharia Law creates all Muslim states as just that Islamic states and defines anyone who is NOT a Muslim as not being allowed to own property and condemned to live as second class citizens in the apartheid system of dhimmitude.

No other state in the world besides Israel grants citizenship to all members of a specific religion. While the majority of people living in certain Muslim states may indeed be Muslim, those states do not grant citizenship to all Muslims around the world. And there is no Christian state that grants citizenship to Christians around the world. That phenomenon is exclusive to Israel.

I would contend Socred lost any credibility when he stated and I quote; “Christians don't have a country of their own. “ I am sure the Queen of England, head of the Church of England

I'm a Christian, does that automatically guarantee me citizenship to England?

Socred deliberately twisted what was said to suggest and infer that you become Israeli only because you are Jewish.

No you've twisted what I said. I've implied no such thing. What I've stated are undeniable facts. One must ask themselves, why does Rue deny facts, falsify my statements, make untrue accusations and outright lies? What is Rue's agenda? What purpose does this serve?

Lectures from Socred as to the legacy and history of the role of Christianity in state run institutions is greatly lacking for someone in pursuit of truth.

I thought this was a thread about the holocaust? If you want to start a thread comparing Judaism and Christianity, I'd be more than happy to post.

Edited April 11, 2008 by socred

[socred]

The fundamentalist Christians who are pro-Israel are the premillianialists who see Israel playing a role in end time prophecy. The Dominionists and Christian Reconstructionists not only have a different take on prophecy, they also want to turn the tide on Dispensational Biblical history. They want a return to the traditional Covenant Theology that the Catholic Church and the mainline Protestant churches have - that the covenant with Israel ended at Pentecost.

Exactly.

[jbg]

Where does the 3% number come from? No one knows for sure how many there are because Domionists rarely venture out in the open and directly attack Christian Zionism, Dispensational theology, or the beliefs in end-time prophecy. They usually prefer to work in the shadows of the broader Christian Nationalist movement. But, in their defence, they feel that Dispensationalism, which really took hold after it was adopted by D.L. Moody, was a stealth heresy that overtook the mainstream understanding of Supersessionalism, or Replacement Theology. So, they see themselves as teachers who are turning churches back to the orthodox Christian worldview.

How do you know so much about Dominionists and Dispensationalists? Which one practices Replacement Theology?

When I was in New York City today, after watching Steyn speak and meeting Levant at the Princeton Club, I asked about 100 people passing the corner of 43rd Street and Fifth Avenue if they were Dominionists, Dispensationalists or adherents to Replacement Theology? I met one Dispensationalist, and one adherent to Replacement Theology, who was slumped over the curb, drunk and throwing up from booze.

[jbg]

Since both groups are fixtures of the broader Christian Nationalist movement, they ususally focus on their common goals of Christian education and political activism, but every so often, they engage in a war of words over their differences - such as this response by the main Domionist group, the Chalcedon Institute, to charges made by Thomas Ice in his book: “Hal Lindsey, Dominion Theology, and Anti-Semitism,” Biblical Perspectives, 5:1 (Jan.–Feb., 1992):

Full moon isn't for about 23 days, I think.

[scribblet]

How do you know so much about Dominionists and Dispensationalists? Which one practices Replacement Theology?

When I was in New York City today, after watching Steyn speak and meeting Levant at the Princeton Club, I asked about 100 people passing the corner of 43rd Street and Fifth Avenue if they were Dominionists, Dispensationalists or adherents to Replacement Theology? I met one Dispensationalist, and one adherent to Replacement Theology, who was slumped over the curb, drunk and throwing up from booze.

LOL it's all a load of you know what.. I can't believe you are all giving credence to such a thread of as this. The poll and the title are offensive - and 3 whackos have voted 'no it's a lie' hmmmm

[AngusThermopyle]

and 3 whackos have voted 'no it's a lie' hmmmm

Strange isn't it. They must be operating on a basis of ignorance, obnoxiousness, or very strong dislike to dispute something so well documented and known.

[Moonlight Graham]

The holocaust happened, but the exact numbers i think are difficult to determine and subject to debate. But really, 6 million or 10 million? Either number is disgusting do does it really even matter?

[WIP]

How do you know so much about Dominionists and Dispensationalists?

I've been through several sects of Christianity during my life. So I actually payed attention to the sermons and bible studies - maybe that's why I could never remain an average, complacent believer for very long!

Which one practices Replacement Theology?

I'm pretty sure I already explained that Dominionism is a politically active Christian Nationalist movement that generally follows the doctrine that the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant with Israel. The Christian Zionists that make up the pro-Israel organizations obviously take the Dispensational approach that the Covenant with Israel is still in effect. I'm surprised you haven't made a little effort to learn about the beliefs and motives of your new friends!

There have been books written criticizing opposing sides of the theology debate, but the two groups try to keep their disputes below the radar since they are both part of the Christian Right coalition that runs the Republican Party.

Replacement Theology has been around for a long time. Throughout church history, leaders and theologians have argued that because of Israel’s sin and disobedience, the Nation of Israel has been rejected by God and replaced by the Church. But, some of the rhetoric regarding this belief is becoming very hostile and verbally abusive.

On the subject of Israel, Christians (by name) are divided into two groups: some who are pro-Israel and often called “Christian Zionists” and those who believe the Church has replaced Israel or that the modern State of Israel is not a part of Bible prophecy. The latter group of Christians is in the majority by far and is usually characterized by one or more of the following positions:

1. Covenant theology (as opposed to dispensational belief).

2. Amillennialism—there will be no future, literal 1000 years of the Messiah’s kingdom on earth.

3. Preterism—the belief that the past judgment of God upon Israel and Jerusalem in 70 AD removed God’s blessing and brought God’s rejection of Israel and its replacement by the Church.

4. The book of Revelation was written before 70 AD.

5. Old Testament references of blessing for the children of Israel refer to the “people of God,” not the State or Nation of Israel.

6. Terms like “the Great Tribulation” and “Armageddon” and “Rapture of the Church” are not treated as literal events of future prophetic fulfillment. (The “Rapture” issue is a big one since most believers equate it with the Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation.)

7. Interpretation of prophecy passages in the Bible is usually allegorical or symbolical rather than literal and historical.

http://christiandestiny.org/publications/n...-03/lead2.shtml

[socred]

The holocaust happened, but the exact numbers i think are difficult to determine and subject to debate.

Are you a "holocaust denier"? Better watch where you say that, because you could end up in jail.

If certain Zionists had their way, there would be no debate on this subject.

Makes you wonder what purpose it serves?

[DogOnPorch]

During the Siege of Leningrad from 1941-1944 between 650,000 and 2 million people died depending on the source used. That doesn't change the fact that the city was under the gun for 900 days and people were forced to eat boiled shoe leather for food.

Want to debate the figures? If so...why? If not...why not?

-----------------------------------------------

I have a ton of Holocaust stuff, and some of it is really hard core.

---Sarah Silverman

[jbg]

Are you a "holocaust denier"? Better watch where you say that, because you could end up in jail.

If certain Zionists had their way, there would be no debate on this subject.

I am a Zionist and am against these kind of laws.

[Guest American Woman]

I never even knew there were nations with laws against denying the Holocaust, much less a number of them:

COUNTRIES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL

Austria

Belgium

Czech Republic

France

Germany

Israel

Lithuania

Poland

Slovakia

Switzerland

link

I can't really understand why there would be laws against it.

[jbg]

I never even knew there were nations with laws against denying the Holocaust, much less a number of them:

COUNTRIES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL

******

I can't really understand why there would be laws against it.

Spot on.

Jews have always done better with open societies and debate than suppression. The fact that Jewish groups have asked for these laws strikes me, as a Jew, as hypocrisy of the highest and most shameful order.

[socred]

I am a Zionist and am against these kind of laws.

And I commend you for that.

I never said every Zionist, or every Jew favored these laws.

[socred]

I never even knew there were nations with laws against denying the Holocaust, much less a number of them:

COUNTRIES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL

Austria

Belgium

Czech Republic

France

Germany

Israel

Lithuania

Poland

Slovakia

Switzerland

link

I can't really understand why there would be laws against it.

You can't understand it? Quite simply the event is being used for political purposes, particularly the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, and the continued expansion of borders in that region.