Did the Holocaust really happen?

[1967100]

Many holocaust deniers (i.e. A-Jad) argue that the holocaust was a story made up by Jewish population to give right to the existance of Israel and that the Jews need to have a country.

Do you believe the holocaust really happened?

[sharkman]

Hey, nineteen sixty-seven one hundred, what the hell is the point of this thread you are making? There are people out there who deny just about everything, and the world ignores their stupidity.

[Oleg Bach]

Hey, nineteen sixty-seven one hundred, what the hell is the point of this thread you are making? There are people out there who deny just about everything, and the world ignores their stupidity.

The holocaust (to burn whole) - did happen. There was a holocaust against the Jews - against Christians (Ukrainian starvation) - against Muslims...and usually there are those that are involved that assist in the killing of their own extended tribe. Both of my parents waded though the bodies of the victims - and anyone who says that there was no mass killing of Jews or Christians by the soviets - has a murdering mind...to deny the holocaust is to say in no uncertain terms that the denying person - would in all likelyhood assist in another holocaust if given the chance...ALL halocaust rejectors are those that would - holocaust you or I if given the chance...those that deny are dangerous because as I said - the denying shows a potential murdering mind... Holocaust rejectors are murdering souls waiting for an opportunity to kill. Don't give it to them! Whether Christain or Jew or Muslim..this type of person will happily kill everyone.. This mindset in actually really does not care who they kill - as long as someone is dying they feel satisfied. To even ask this question "Did the holocaust happen is absurd.

Half of Africa is being cleared by the fires of hate - Iraq - now has up to a million deaths...Holocausts are still common practice - also - for the delluded Henry Morgantaler to say - "unwanted children grow up to be concentration camp guards" - his assistance in the blockage of birth - inadvertantly was a holocaust...not blaming the man but just as in Israel - if you hate long enough - you become what you hate....humanity suffers dellusions that bring on suffering....those dellusionaries that insist there was no holocaust - should have their faces slapped till they come to their senses.

[Cuba's Friend]

Man 19......,

It makes me wonder too, what you are trying to achieve with this thread.

Germany and German people have accepted this darkest part of German history and all will agree, that this is to be remembered forever, not only by Germans and their affiliates at that time, but by any country and it was the UN's duty (in part) to avoid anything like this in the future, sad it has failed so many others that have been eliminated by equally cruel and disrespectful governments.

JK, Cuba's Friend

[maldon_road]

Do you believe the holocaust really happened?

Might as well ask - did Pearl Harbor really happen? Or Hiroshima?

I've only seen pictures of Hiroshima just as I have only seen pictures of the Holocaust.

I've met Holocaust survivors. Imagine the planning that would have to go into this story if it were just a hoax.

Edited February 24, 2008 by maldon_road

[DogOnPorch]

Many holocaust deniers (i.e. A-Jad) argue that the holocaust was a story made up by Jewish population to give right to the existance of Israel and that the Jews need to have a country.

Do you believe the holocaust really happened?

First...what do you believe?

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Do I know what a rhetorical question is??

---Homer Simpson

[Leafless]

Many holocaust deniers (i.e. A-Jad) argue that the holocaust was a story made up by Jewish population to give right to the existance of Israel and that the Jews need to have a country.

Do you believe the holocaust really happened?

Actually the correct name is:

Nazi Holocaust: 1938-1945 - 6,000,000 Deaths

This falls under 20th century acts of genocide.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/index.html

[iForgot]

This poll is dumb. You're saying we either believe the mainstream version or we out-right deny the whole damn thing. I don't think six million Jews died in the Holocaust and five million others. I do not think there was an initial state-planned complete extermination of Jews but I do believe that there was gassings and large numbers of people were killed. Anywhere between 1 and 3 million seems appropriate. The 300,000 figure deniers claim is as ridiculously extreme as the 11 million figure.

Do a google search there are thousands of large debates and nearly all of the sane people involved in them come to the conclusion the 300,000 figure is too low and the 11 million figure was overblown for Jewish sympathy.

[iForgot]

The holocaust (to burn whole) - did happen. There was a holocaust against the Jews - against Christians (Ukrainian starvation) - against Muslims...and usually there are those that are involved that assist in the killing of their own extended tribe. Both of my parents waded though the bodies of the victims - and anyone who says that there was no mass killing of Jews or Christians by the soviets - has a murdering mind...to deny the holocaust is to say in no uncertain terms that the denying person - would in all likelyhood assist in another holocaust if given the chance...ALL halocaust rejectors are those that would - holocaust you or I if given the chance...those that deny are dangerous because as I said - the denying shows a potential murdering mind... Holocaust rejectors are murdering souls waiting for an opportunity to kill. Don't give it to them! Whether Christain or Jew or Muslim..this type of person will happily kill everyone.. This mindset in actually really does not care who they kill - as long as someone is dying they feel satisfied. To even ask this question "Did the holocaust happen is absurd.

Half of Africa is being cleared by the fires of hate - Iraq - now has up to a million deaths...Holocausts are still common practice - also - for the delluded Henry Morgantaler to say - "unwanted children grow up to be concentration camp guards" - his assistance in the blockage of birth - inadvertantly was a holocaust...not blaming the man but just as in Israel - if you hate long enough - you become what you hate....humanity suffers dellusions that bring on suffering....those dellusionaries that insist there was no holocaust - should have their faces slapped till they come to their senses.

I do agree with you that anyone who denies the holocaust or claims only 300,000 were killed has an agenda. However, there are many people (myself being one of them) who has taken notice of many of the deniers claims that are true. This has led to most people intensely involved in Holocaust reviewing to agree that the widely accepted number of six million is exaggerated. Although almost everyone does agree that a couple million were killed most definitely and an attempt at genocide was made, which is heavily backed by the Himmer recording of "the Jewish people is being exterminated".

[socred]

This poll is dumb. You're saying we either believe the mainstream version or we out-right deny the whole damn thing.

Precisely! This is why you can never have an honest debate on the subject. If you in any way challenge the number of Jews killed, then you're labelled a "holocaust denier". In fact, the numbers have changed, and continue to change depending on who's making the claim.

As Napoleon Bonaparte once said, "history is a set of lies agreed upon".

Edited February 24, 2008 by socred

[iForgot]

Precisely! This is why you can never have an honest debate on the subject. If you in any way challenge the number of Jews killed, then you're labelled a "holocaust denier". In fact, the numbers have changed, and continue to change depending on who's making the claim.

As Napoleon Bonaparte once said, "history is a set of lies agreed upon".

Agreed. We are not denying it, we are just skeptic about the numbers. The only reason we are skeptic is because it is shoved down our throats and is used for political advancement. Nobody questions the number Stalin killed, heck that may be inflated too but no one really focuses on that because there is no reason to. The Holocaust is however constantly shoved down our throats, six million, six million, six million and there is a ton of evidence suggesting it was lower. I don't think anyone other than Nazis WANT to criticize it, but we are forced to.

[segnosaur]

Agreed. We are not denying it, we are just skeptic about the numbers.

The only reason we are skeptic is because it is shoved down our throats...

Did you ever think that the reason it is 'shoved down our throats' is that it is actually a reflection of the correct number killed?

Its just like the whole Evolution vs. Creationism debate... serious scientists know that Evolution occurred; their refusal to entertain the idea of creationism is a case of them just following the evidence, which points to evolution. Similarly, those who, for some reason think that far fewer than 6 million died are discounted by serious historians.

Ummm... here's a suggestion... try reading some of the works of noted skeptic Michael Shermer. I'd recommend "Why people believe Weird Things". It has a very good section on the holocaust, and points out what evidence we have that there were roughly 6 million jews (plus several million others) executed and why the claims of those suggesting significantly lower numbers should be ignored.

Being a 'skeptic' does not mean that you automatically have to discount or doubt what is presented to you. It simply means that you should go where the evidence takes you. That evidence points us to the fact that somewhere around 6 million died. While that number may be a little smaller, it is not likely to be out by more than a million.

The Holocaust is however constantly shoved down our throats, six million, six million, six million and there is a ton of evidence suggesting it was lower.

Please present your 'evidence' that the number killed during the holocaust was significantly lower than 6 million.

[M.Dancer]

Agreed. We are not denying it, we are just skeptic about the numbers. The only reason we are skeptic is because it is shoved down our throats and is used for political advancement. Nobody questions the number Stalin killed, heck that may be inflated too but no one really focuses on that because there is no reason to. The Holocaust is however constantly shoved down our throats, six million, six million, six million and there is a ton of evidence suggesting it was lower. I don't think anyone other than Nazis WANT to criticize it, but we are forced to.

The number is substanially higher. Obviously with it being shoved down your throat, it missed the reasoning and memory stoarge areas...

6 million Jews

1 million plus politicals

200,000 Poles in camps, 100s of thousands more by death sqauds

2 million+ Soviet POWs in camps

200,000 + Gypsies

100,000 + mentally disabled

100,000 + freemansons

100,000 + Serbs

[Regulus de Leo]

Agreed. We are not denying it, we are just skeptic about the numbers. The only reason we are skeptic is because it is shoved down our throats and is used for political advancement. Nobody questions the number Stalin killed, heck that may be inflated too but no one really focuses on that because there is no reason to. The Holocaust is however constantly shoved down our throats, six million, six million, six million and there is a ton of evidence suggesting it was lower. I don't think anyone other than Nazis WANT to criticize it, but we are forced to.

If it was only 4 millon would that make it any less worse than it is? One of the most advanced societies on earth used modern bureacracy and science to murder millions of human beings in a systematic and thorough way such as the world had never seen before. It was regimented, automated murder on a massive scale, assisted by government, medicine, and engineering, all used to make a perfect machine for death. Frightening no? The 6 million Jews reference is because it was the largest group. It is worth remembering.

[socred]

If it was only 4 millon would that make it any less worse than it is? One of the most advanced societies on earth used modern bureacracy and science to murder millions of human beings in a systematic and thorough way such as the world had never seen before. It was regimented, automated murder on a massive scale, assisted by government, medicine, and engineering, all used to make a perfect machine for death. Frightening no? The 6 million Jews reference is because it was the largest group. It is worth remembering.

Does it really matter how many were killed? Is someone who disagrees with the numbers killed a "holocaust denier"? Is someone who disagrees with the numbers of Jews killed deserving of jail?

This is a highly politicized issue, evidenced by political prisoners such as Ernst Zundel.

"I might not agree with what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it."

Groups such as the ADL and JDL want to silence any debate on this subject.

It's also a fact that the biggest single event which helped to establish the state of Israel is the "holocaust", so there is no doubt that Zionist interests have a vested interest in stifling all debate on the subject.

[Melanie_]

The number is substanially higher. Obviously with it being shoved down your throat, it missed the reasoning and memory stoarge areas...

6 million Jews

1 million plus politicals

200,000 Poles in camps, 100s of thousands more by death sqauds

2 million+ Soviet POWs in camps

200,000 + Gypsies

100,000 + mentally disabled

100,000 + freemansons

100,000 + Serbs

Don't forget the gays, too. While the number may be small (estimates are that between 5000 and 15000 gay men died in concentration camps), they also were a targetted group and had a very high death rate for those sent to the camps (60%). Wikipedia article, not for the faint hearted.

[Regulus de Leo]

Does it really matter how many were killed? Is someone who disagrees with the numbers killed a "holocaust denier"? Is someone who disagrees with the numbers of Jews killed deserving of jail?

This is a highly politicized issue, evidenced by political prisoners such as Ernst Zundel.

"I might not agree with what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it."

Groups such as the ADL and JDL want to silence any debate on this subject.

It's also a fact that the biggest single event which helped to establish the state of Israel is the "holocaust", so there is no doubt that Zionist interests have a vested interest in stifling all debate on the subject.

I find it disturbing that your post refers to 'Zionists' and describes Neo-Nazi Ernst Zundel as a 'political prisoner'.

The people who quarrel with the numbers start with the numbers but end with Zionist conspiracy theories.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Regulus de Leo

[DogOnPorch]

Just to show the extent of the German efficiency...

In a 24 hour period in September, 1941 (29th-30th) the SS managed to shoot 33,771 Jewish civilians in Kiev. They were all shot in a ravine known as Babi Yar. The Germans thought the method far too slow...and too hard on the SS troopers.

In light of this figure, one might imagine what a real Death Camp like Auschwitz-Birkenau could do over its time in operation.

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I saw a young completely naked woman feed her naked baby with the breast when a policeman came to her, took the baby, and thrust it into the pit. The mother rushed after the child. A fascist shot her dead, and she fell into the pit. Had someone told me this, I would not believe it. It is impossible to believe.

---Dina Mironovna Vasserman: Бабий яр

[Dionysus]

I do think that it's a fair criticism of the history of that era that the numbers aren't necessarily reliable. At the same time, it really doesn't take anything away from what happened. I've seen nothing to convince me that it didn't happen.

That all being said, I think the argument "Holocaust deniers" SHOULD be making is the one I heard Ahmadinejad make before and that is to question not if it happened but where. European guilt on the issue should have influence on Middle Eastern politics. It raises some more question for sure but is a much fairer criticism than if it occurred or not.

[socred]

I find it disturbing that your post refers to 'Zionists' and describes Neo-Nazi Ernst Zundel as a 'political prisoner'.

The people who quarrel with the numbers start with the numbers but end with Zionist conspiracy theories.

I find it disturbing that you make all sorts of assumptions.

Are you saying that I cannot refer to Zionism?

Do you deny that Ernst Zundel is a political prisoner?

[DogOnPorch]

I do think that it's a fair criticism of the history of that era that the numbers aren't necessarily reliable. At the same time, it really doesn't take anything away from what happened. I've seen nothing to convince me that it didn't happen.

I tend to think Obersturmbannführer-SS Eichmann's figures are probably the closest. He was part of The Final Solution from start to finish.

That all being said, I think the argument "Holocaust deniers" SHOULD be making is the one I heard Ahmadinejad make before and that is to question not if it happened but where. European guilt on the issue should have influence on Middle Eastern politics. It raises some more question for sure but is a much fairer criticism than if it occurred or not.

That doesn't hold much water. The Mufti of Jerusalem was a key figure in the Holocaust. He didn't seem to mind bringing his 'politics' to Europe. Apparently he went so far as to gas a load of Jews while visiting one of the camps with his chums Himmler and Eichmann. He managed to escape justice ending up back in the Middle-East with his 'politics' only to bring about the 1948 War. His nephew went on to form the PLO.

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We are not Afghanistan…We are the Mighty People. Were they able to replace our hero Hajj Amin al-Husseini? There were a number of attempts to get rid of Hajj Amin, whom they considered an ally of the Nazis. But even so, he lived in Cairo, and participated in the 1948 war, and I was one of his troops.

---Mohammed Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini (Yasser Arafat) to Al Sharq al Awsat (London Arabic Newspaper)

[DogOnPorch]

Are you saying that I cannot refer to Zionism?

Of course not...but, it is a politically charged word these days. When I hear it, I tend to think of Horst Wessel rather than a political movement of the late 19th --> mid 20th centuries.

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I gotta catch a train, 'cause there is no other station; Then you going in the same direction...

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[socred]

Of course not...but, it is a politically charged word these days. When I hear it, I tend to think of Horst Wessel rather than a political movement of the late 19th --> mid 20th centuries.

Seems the Nazis were interested in Zionism as well:

"Eichmann was then assigned to investigate possible "solutions to the Jewish question." He visited Palestine in 1937 to discuss the possibility of large scale immigration of Jews to the Middle East with Arab leaders. British authorities, however, ordered him out of the country. "

Adolf Eichmann

[Regulus de Leo]

Do you deny that Ernst Zundel is a political prisoner?

The connotation of the term 'political prisoner' suggests that he is a victim of persecution for dissenting political opinions and given your reference to 'Zionism' one can easily surmise who you are are suggesting is his persecutor.

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for Zundel's crackpot beliefs and I don't think he should have been prosecuted in this country for expressing them, but even then I would not suggest he was ever a 'political prisoner.'

[socred]

The connotation of the term 'political prisoner' suggests that he is a victim of persecution for dissenting political opinions and given your reference to 'Zionism' one can easily surmise who you are are suggesting is his persecutor.

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for Zundel's crackpot beliefs and I don't think he should have been prosecuted in this country for expressing them, but even then I would not suggest he was ever a 'political prisoner.'

I don't agree with Mr. Zundel either, but I believe he has a right to express his opinion, and the fact that he was put in jail for expressing that opinion makes him a political prisoner.