Bodies

[myata]

As seen on ABC 20/20: Bodies.

Plasticized real bodies (cadavers) seem to be coming into fashion south of the border.

There're several exhibitions, and as I understand they are available for private order as well.

Most of the bodies shown are from people of certain ethnicity, the idea being the they were donated them "for medical research". However many seem to be those of healthy people. Which raises many questions about the origins, arrangements around this business.

It appears that a market for human cadavers is developing. And market is governed solely by the laws of profit and supply/demand. Any reason for concern here?

P.S. I found it somewhat telling that the fad seems to be confined to the US. Only there (of the developed world) one can find crowds eager to jump at virtually anything as long as it's eye popping and everybody else does it. Then perhaps collectively question it; collectively condemn; experience collective redemption; and come out collectively fortified in their goodness; then go preaching it to the world.

[noahbody]

P.S. I found it somewhat telling that the fad seems to be confined to the US.

Where exactly does it say the fad is confined to the US? Nowhere.

Does mention this though:

to its origins — from a body processing factory on the German-Polish border

Edited February 16, 2008 by noahbody

[bush_cheney2004]

...P.S. I found it somewhat telling that the fad seems to be confined to the US. Only there (of the developed world) one can find crowds eager to jump at virtually anything as long as it's eye popping and everybody else does it. Then perhaps collectively question it; collectively condemn; experience collective redemption; and come out collectively fortified in their goodness; then go preaching it to the world.

Another feeble attempt to slur the US and Americans, even as you watch their media daily to learn of such things in the first place...how ironic. Shall we also question the origins of donated cadavers for medical schools and mummies? I think there may even be some of both in Canada. Oh my!

Edited February 16, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

P.S. I found it somewhat telling that the fad seems to be confined to the US. Only there (of the developed world) one can find crowds eager to jump at virtually anything as long as it's eye popping and everybody else does it. Then perhaps collectively question it; collectively condemn; experience collective redemption; and come out collectively fortified in their goodness; then go preaching it to the world.

First of all, if a fad is confined only to the U.S., it has to be bad. Is that it? I don't know what else to make of I found it somewhat telling that the fad seems to be confined to the US.

"We encourage everyone to book early to ensure getting a ticket," Smith said. "This is going to be one of the hottest tickets in town, and we project attendance in excess of 350,000 people."

No, that's not in regards to an exhibition in the U.S., but in Edmonton.

Bodies on display

Other versions of Body Worlds have shown in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver...

Ironically, I first heard about this type of exhibition when I was in Toronto and the Science Centre had an exhibition going on.

Ontario Science Centre to bring Gunther von Hagens’ BODY WORLDS 2: The Anatomical Exhibition of Real Human Bodies to Canada

Edited February 16, 2008 by American Woman

[Wilber]

As seen on ABC 20/20: Bodies.

Plasticized real bodies (cadavers) seem to be coming into fashion south of the border.

There're several exhibitions, and as I understand they are available for private order as well.

Most of the bodies shown are from people of certain ethnicity, the idea being the they were donated them "for medical research". However many seem to be those of healthy people. Which raises many questions about the origins, arrangements around this business.

It appears that a market for human cadavers is developing. And market is governed solely by the laws of profit and supply/demand. Any reason for concern here?

P.S. I found it somewhat telling that the fad seems to be confined to the US. Only there (of the developed world) one can find crowds eager to jump at virtually anything as long as it's eye popping and everybody else does it. Then perhaps collectively question it; collectively condemn; experience collective redemption; and come out collectively fortified in their goodness; then go preaching it to the world.

Edmonton

Toronto

Vancouver

Edited February 16, 2008 by Wilber

[bush_cheney2004]

Edmonton

Toronto

Vancouver

Touche!

[myata]

Well, I never said we're completely immune to everything that's coming across the border, whether bodies, or guns, or economic prosperity - it's the longest (not guarded) one in world, after all. But certainly a reason for concern in this country, thanks for the information. For once, all specimen, individually, must be confirmed to have been donated voluntarily with explicit consent for public display. Secondly, if disproportionate number originate from some less transparent third world country(ies), we should be very, very concerned. That BTW was my impression from watching the part of ABC program I was able to see - most of shown specimen appeared to be of one particular ethnicity. I just can't think of one reason, why people in that part of the world would be more willing to donate their bodies than here in the West? And how can we be sure that supplies procured back there are indeed "voluntary"? Finally, I believe it was said in the program that bodies are also available for commercial order. I haven't yet found a transcript on the Web, and won't be quoted on that (the part I was listening to dealt with internet sites and mail orders, I cannot confirm whether in question were commercial orders or/and the exhibitions). That part would be my biggest concern, as we explicitly prohibit commercial trade in human organs and tissues, if I understand it correctly. If anybody caught that part, or found the transcript, clarifications will be highly appreciated.

[BubberMiley]

I once thought Joel Peter Witkin's art was cool, but I guess I'm more senstive in my old age and now find it just a little too disturbing. I never gave it much thought that he's American though. Some people would politicize anything I guess.

[Wilber]

Well, I never said we're completely immune to everything that's coming across the border, whether bodies, or guns, or economic prosperity - it's the longest (not guarded) one in world, after all.

Von Hagens has no more connection to the US than he does to Canada. His exhibition has shown in both countries. It was brought here by Canadians, not shoved down our throats by Americans. This thread is nothing more than anti American crap.

[bush_cheney2004]

... For once, all specimen, individually, must be confirmed to have been donated voluntarily with explicit consent for public display. Secondly, if disproportionate number originate from some less transparent third world country(ies), we should be very, very concerned. That BTW was my impression from watching the part of ABC program I was able to see - most of shown specimen appeared to be of one particular ethnicity. I just can't think of one reason, why people in that part of the world would be more willing to donate their bodies than here in the West? And how can we be sure that supplies procured back there are indeed "voluntary"? Finally, I believe it was said in the program that bodies are also available for commercial order....

Nobody is forcing you to go to any such exhibition. Some of those who go may not give a damn where the bodies and parts come from. Hell, for $25 a ticket, they had better be real!

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/08/business...agewanted=print

Edited February 17, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[myata]

That wisdom is of course essentially american. To hell with everything else, as long as I pay my buck. Of which Chinese appear to be good students. And they have so much of the "resource". Looks like new age of entertainment is dawning. Like nothing you've seen before!

[bush_cheney2004]

That wisdom is of course essentially american. To hell with everything else, as long as I pay my buck. Of which Chinese appear to be good students. And they have so much of the "resource". Looks like new age of entertainment is dawning. Like nothing you've seen before!

I guess you never visited the circus back when such "oddities" packed them in. Not just the freak shows either. I remember seeing a full term baby in a large pickle jar back in the early 1960's. Before my time, there was all manner of interesting, crowd pleasing freakdom to be had by the working class. Such things were not exclusively American, despite your efforts to paint it as such. For instance, the Carnival Diablo in Calgary is hardly American. Canada had numerous other freak shows and side shows.

[Wilber]

That wisdom is of course essentially american. To hell with everything else, as long as I pay my buck. Of which Chinese appear to be good students. And they have so much of the "resource". Looks like new age of entertainment is dawning. Like nothing you've seen before!

Try reading some Roman history and check out what they considered entertainment. Your blatant anti Americanism is pathetic. No attempt at objectivity whatsoever.

Interesting that it is an American TV network show that has taken up this story and not a Canadian network, even though the exhibition is being held in both countries. Don't ya think?

As a Canadian I find this insulting. We are quite capable of doing stupid things all by ourselves. We don't need Americans to show us how. No doubt the Chinese feel the same way. They do capitalism as well as anyone but got sidetracked for fifty years.

[Guest American Woman]

That wisdom is of course essentially american. To hell with everything else, as long as I pay my buck. Of which Chinese appear to be good students. And they have so much of the "resource". Looks like new age of entertainment is dawning. Like nothing you've seen before!

This quote: "We encourage everyone to book early to ensure getting a ticket," Smith said. "This is going to be one of the hottest tickets in town, and we project attendance in excess of 350,000 people." is a quote from Canada.

If your concern is where the bodies are coming from, why did you make it a rant about the United States? What you said isn't even true. This isn't a "fad confined to the United States." Your country is every bit as much "into" it as the U.S. is.

Here's a site with a lot of information: N.Y., China Investigating Black Market in Bodies

There are links within that site leading to more information. If you click on "more photos" there's a narrative that mentions the internet site that offers the placticized bodies for sale .

Edited February 17, 2008 by American Woman

[myata]

OK - first I admit entirely that this country is as guilty of unchecked (by ethics) want for weird eye popping entertainment as the US. The text should have read "North American" and does not imply any Canadian superiority. I did a googe on Body worlds and could find only one other international destination (London). If anybody found others, I'd appreciate information.

I'm OK with anybody performing any kind of freak art as long as it doesn't cause anybody else to hurt. It's obvious to anybody with two years of school (or at least should be) that no matter what creative formula impressarios of this "art" would like to employ, these aren't thousand year old "mummies", nor they are "plastic models" for anatomic educainment. They are bodies of our contemporaries, some visibly, of healthy and not very aged individuals, cooked in a certain way, and we'd be damn well make sure that we apply same standard as when a body is found (or brought into) this country to know who they are and how they died. I'm surprised that so many bought into it without thinking. Speaks volumes about this mass consumerism culture which, if anything, will some day bring an end to this civilization.

I'm also very surprised and disappointed that both museums and border agencies have been duped by the "plastic model" this part definitely needs more investigation. Every "specimen" is a human body (or a part thereof) and the same standard should be applied to these exhibitions as when a body is brought into a country.

[Guest American Woman]

OK - first I admit entirely that this country is as guilty of unchecked (by ethics) want for weird eye popping entertainment as the US. The text should have read "North American" and does not imply any Canadian superiority. I did a googe on Body worlds and could find only one other international destination (London). If anybody found others, I'd appreciate information.

Human Body Worlds opened in Mannheim, Germany, in 1997. Some 800,000 visitors were counted in total in Mannheim, and similarly high numbers viewed the exhibition when it traveled to Japan, Vienna and Cologne, where it currently resides. link

The exhibition's developer and promoter is a German anatomist named Gunther von Hagens, who invented the plastination technique in the late 1970s. The exhibition, first presented in Tokyo in 1995, has been shown in many cities in Europe and Asia. link

This type of exhibition didn't even originate in the United States/North America.

Edited February 18, 2008 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

...They are bodies of our contemporaries, some visibly, of healthy and not very aged individuals, cooked in a certain way, and we'd be damn well make sure that we apply same standard as when a body is found (or brought into) this country to know who they are and how they died. I'm surprised that so many bought into it without thinking. Speaks volumes about this mass consumerism culture which, if anything, will some day bring an end to this civilization....

So what? This "civilization" transports bodies and body parts as a routine matter. We cremate remains, perform autopsies, medical dissections....hell, one outfit is freezing severed heads with cryogenics. We have enough problems with the live ones without worrying about the integrity of the dead ones put on display.

Human remains are just that...remains.

[myata]

Should anybody ask questions, how they come to be that? Through a will of their own or perhaps less so? Or does the technique of branding them "plastic models" closes all questions?

As far as I'm aware, not all body parts can be imported - and those that are, tightly controlled. Should the same standard be applied for these "models"? Was it?

[White Doors]

haha

I have never seen someone get so thoroughly trashed in a thred before, especially the OP!

lol

good job. She had it coming with that very dumb OP!

[myata]

Please continue, why keep everybody intrigued when you have such a wealth of insight and original thought (as per your usual self), and even directly on the subject of discussion? Come one, don't be shy now, everybody's waiting!

[M.Dancer]

Well, if this is a fad, then it's an old news fad. Canadian Artist Mark Prent was doing spectacular plastic sculture in the 70s examing who we interact with our world. One particular exhibit was a meat locker, but instead of sides of beef....

http://www.markprent.com/main.html

1972

Toronto art dealer Av Isaacs becomes the first person charged with exhibiting a disgusting object under an obscure section of the Criminal Code. The charge relates to an exhibit by Montreal artist Mark Prent. Charges are thrown out.

1974

Mark Prent has another exhibition at the Isaacs Gallery. Police again lay charges under the same law, and the charges are again dropped. The law itself is subsequently repealed.

http://www.efc.ca/pages/chronicle/chronicle.html

[myata]

Again, at issue is not the freaky, disgusting or otherwise, nature of this "art". It's how the supplies for the "art" have been procured. Why there had to be some (many?) bodies originating from China and the like? I.e. places where legality of proceedings can in no way be assured. Why weren't 7,000 prospective volunteers (presumably, from the West) enough? Strange. And very suspicious.

In any case, if a body is imported into the country for medical purposes, there's a lot of paperwork that goes with it. I see no reason why this "art" should fare any different. Just can't believe that these people got away with the "plastic model" dupe. What does it say about efficiency of our customs (and ethics panels that were created in some museums)? We won't allow import of some animal artifacts to prevent illegal hunting, but should they'd been molded into plastic models, that would fly too?

[bush_cheney2004]

.... We won't allow import of some animal artifacts to prevent illegal hunting, but should they'd been molded into plastic models, that would fly too?

Humans are not an endangered species...especially in China. If you have proof that the exhibits contain specimens obtained illegally, please notify the RCMP at once. Inventing law based on a personal belief system will not fly.

[myata]

I don't think it works this way. Whoever's importing human body parts has to prove that they are obtained legally and with legal purpose. These artifacts were branded "plastic models". It's certainly incorrect and maybe illegal. It's mind blowing that some museums apparently couldn't see the difference, with all their "ethics panels".

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't think it works this way. Whoever's importing human body parts has to prove that they are obtained legally and with legal purpose. These artifacts were branded "plastic models". It's certainly incorrect and maybe illegal. It's mind blowing that some museums apparently couldn't see the difference, with all their "ethics panels".

There is a legal purpose.....exhibition and ticket sales. Even government gets a cut (taxes). Everybody wins!