The Coward of Caledonia?

[Wild Bill]

No there is no point blaming aboriginals over the fact our federal government has a legacy of lying, breaching treaties and failing to take responsibility for its actions.

No there is no point getting mad at non aboriginals who no fault of their own have invested their life savings in activities relying on their government which said they could.

If a finger is to be pointed, point it at the politicians of the past and present. Don’t point it at aboriginals the Canadian Armed Forces that did not ask to be the security front line or those people screwed by Caledonia who are not aboriginal.

It comes back to people like me-those idiot lawyers you hate, who have to sit and engage in collaborative legal practice and mediate amicable resolutions.

This only emphasizes the point that the aboriginals have made a mistake by getting mad at the Caledonia townsfolk and using them as cannon fodder in their dispute with the government, idiot politicians and lawyers. There was little to win by such a tactic and a lot was lost.

The Six Nations dispute is only going to fester as it goes on. I don't expect Dalton will do anything significant for the townsfolk or come to any lasting resolution with SN. It may become a big issue next election, depending on what stand the opposition Tories take. Harper is in no hurry. Why should he help get Dalton off the hook, when Dalton has been so negative towards Harper and his party? No, he's going to let Dalton squirm on the hook till the cows come home.

Meanwhile, most of the folks taking the aboriginal side on this board strike me as very naive. They seem to take it as a fact there is some "Cosmic Policeman" who would force Canadian governments to obey the (aboriginal!) interpretation of Law. In reality there is nothing to force governments to obey their own laws.

These aboriginal spokespeople posters have proven this with their own words, when they say that Canadian governments have broken their own laws. Moreover, the townsfolk of Caledonia have learned this, to their sorrow, when an OPP dispatcher tells a scared housewife "Don't call us anymore! We can do nothing for you!"

After these examples, how on earth can they expect that if they demanded the moon Canadian governments would just say, "OOPS! Sorry! Quite right! Just let us get our wallets out!"?

It won't happen. If the natives decide then to get violent they will find that while the Canadian military is no longer much by world standards it is more than enough to deal with Six Nations. And Six Nations has burned much of their support in the mainstream community.

It's the difference between being anal-retentive and realistic. When someone shouts "You have to do this! It's in the rules!", usually they end up being mocked and ignored.

Remember the peasant Arthur met in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"? When he asks for directions and the peasant gives him a long political "loony left" diatribe, until Arthur finally shoves him out of the way and just leaves him?

I wish I could remember the peasant character's name. It might be a useful suggestion for a new member alias for some on this board who keep continually changing theirs...

[joan]

This only emphasizes the point that the aboriginals have made a mistake by getting mad at the Caledonia townsfolk and using them as cannon fodder in their dispute with the government, idiot politicians and lawyers. There was little to win by such a tactic and a lot was lost.

The Six Nations dispute is only going to fester as it goes on. I don't expect Dalton will do anything significant for the townsfolk or come to any lasting resolution with SN. It may become a big issue next election, depending on what stand the opposition Tories take. Harper is in no hurry. Why should he help get Dalton off the hook, when Dalton has been so negative towards Harper and his party? No, he's going to let Dalton squirm on the hook till the cows come home.

Meanwhile, most of the folks taking the aboriginal side on this board strike me as very naive. They seem to take it as a fact there is some "Cosmic Policeman" who would force Canadian governments to obey the (aboriginal!) interpretation of Law. In reality there is nothing to force governments to obey their own laws.

These aboriginal spokespeople posters have proven this with their own words, when they say that Canadian governments have broken their own laws. Moreover, the townsfolk of Caledonia have learned this, to their sorrow, when an OPP dispatcher tells a scared housewife "Don't call us anymore! We can do nothing for you!"

After these examples, how on earth can they expect that if they demanded the moon Canadian governments would just say, "OOPS! Sorry! Quite right! Just let us get our wallets out!"?

It won't happen. If the natives decide then to get violent they will find that while the Canadian military is no longer much by world standards it is more than enough to deal with Six Nations. And Six Nations has burned much of their support in the mainstream community.

It's the difference between being anal-retentive and realistic. When someone shouts "You have to do this! It's in the rules!", usually they end up being mocked and ignored.

Remember the peasant Arthur met in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"? When he asks for directions and the peasant gives him a long political "loony left" diatribe, until Arthur finally shoves him out of the way and just leaves him?

I wish I could remember the peasant character's name. It might be a useful suggestion for a new member alias for some on this board who keep continually changing theirs...

blah blah blah poor me the big 'Indian' SCARED me (18 months ago) ! boo hoo hoo !

There is a small group of people from Caledonia who carry on like this all the time. They care nothing for the legalities of the issue, who is right or wrong doesn't matter to them. It is just the most excitement they have ever had and they keep trying to get back those glory days of 18 months ago when they had something to complain about (though nowhere NEAR what Six Nations has to complain about). However, their tales of misery are getting old and stale and boring now but they continue to repeat them hoping for more excitement.

[M.Dancer]

Being jumped and clubbed on your property apparently is nothing to complain about.

[joan]

Being jumped and clubbed on your property apparently is nothing to complain about.

Not if you tried to kill a fifteen year old first! That is the other side of the story not told to the media, because they didn't ask. The 15 year old had abrasions on his adams apple. His windpipe was nearly crushed. The builder got a club from his truck and laid in wait for the boys, and attacked them because they were going to hang a flag on his house, despite the fact that the OPP had ordered the builders off the site hours before. Really mature!

So if you were 18 and your 15 year old brother was being threatened with death, would you grab a club and knock the guy off him? I think so. EVERYONE would. It's just a friggen flag!

Interesting that the builder's brother has never said what he saw, I suspect because what he saw was his older brother attack and nearly kill a 15 year old kid for trying to hang a flag.

Edited January 29, 2008 by joan

[noahbody]

That reflects the agreement. However, the government negotiators have not even claimed that any payments were made.

If there is a deed, the land was purchased. I doubt the government negotiators deny this.

[noahbody]

Not if you tried to kill a fifteen year old first! That is the other side of the story not told to the media, because they didn't ask. The 15 year old had abrasions on his adams apple. His windpipe was nearly crushed. The builder got a club from his truck and laid in wait for the boys, and attacked them because they were going to hang a flag on his house, despite the fact that the OPP had ordered the builders off the site hours before. Really mature!

So if you were 18 and your 15 year old brother was being threatened with death, would you grab a club and knock the guy off him? I think so. EVERYONE would. It's just a friggen flag!

Interesting that the builder's brother has never said what he saw, I suspect because what he saw was his older brother attack and nearly kill a 15 year old kid for trying to hang a flag.

Actually two of the three have been to court. Apparently your version is still a fabrication. It was actually the 15 year old threatening with death. Sorry, no video either.

P.S. Jennie also said "It's just a friggen flag!" How strange.

[M.Dancer]

Not if you tried to kill a fifteen year old first! That is the other side of the story not told to the media, because they didn't ask. The 15 year old had abrasions on his adams apple. His windpipe was nearly crushed. The builder got a club from his truck and laid in wait for the boys, and attacked them because they were going to hang a flag on his house, despite the fact that the OPP had ordered the builders off the site hours before. Really mature!

So if you were 18 and your 15 year old brother was being threatened with death, would you grab a club and knock the guy off him? I think so. EVERYONE would. It's just a friggen flag!

Interesting that the builder's brother has never said what he saw, I suspect because what he saw was his older brother attack and nearly kill a 15 year old kid for trying to hang a flag.

Anyone want to take a stab at where we heard this bogus line before? The one where a few innocents young men wer jumped by a lone property owner so they had to defend themselves by countering his head blows with their boots and a two by four?

I believe all suspects have been charged.

[joan]

Anyone want to take a stab at where we heard this bogus line before? The one where a few innocents young men wer jumped by a lone property owner so they had to defend themselves by countering his head blows with their boots and a two by four?

I believe all suspects have been charged.

I heard it from a person who was watching.

It will be interesting to see if the builder is charged once all the facts are in court.

[M.Dancer]

I heard it from a person who was watching.

It will be interesting to see if the builder is charged once all the facts are in court.

Of course you did.

And have they submitted themselves as a witness? It will be interesting to see if the witness is charged with perjury once all the facts are in court.

[Wild Bill]

I heard it from a person who was watching.

It will be interesting to see if the builder is charged once all the facts are in court.

He was an OLD MAN! They were teenagers!

What glory! What honour!

I'm surprised those young lads didn't feel the need to use a howitzer to defend themselves from the old geezer...

Every time we hear of this sort of thuggery we get a steaming load of historical revisionism about how it didn't really happen, or they were forced into it, or an old man was actually a Kung Fu ninja warrior armed with razor sharp shiraken, or the situation was a faked putup by white racists trying to make natives look bad or yadda, yadda, yadda...

Goebbels would be proud...

[DogOnPorch]

Wild Bill: Remember the peasant Arthur met in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"? When he asks for directions and the peasant gives him a long political "loony left" diatribe, until Arthur finally shoves him out of the way and just leaves him?

I wish I could remember the peasant character's name. It might be a useful suggestion for a new member alias for some on this board who keep continually changing theirs...

Dennis, I believe (Michael Palin)...plus the Old Woman (Terry Jones). And King Arthur, of course (Graham Chapman).

Example, Dennis: Oh, king eh? Very nice. And how'd you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers. By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071853/quotes

---------------------------------------------

On second thought, let's not go to Caledonia. It is a silly place.

Edited January 30, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[Wild Bill]

Dennis, I believe (Michael Palin)...plus the Old Woman (Terry Jones). And King Arthur, of course (Graham Chapman).

Example, Dennis: Oh, king eh? Very nice. And how'd you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers. By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071853/quotes

---------------------------------------------

On second thought, let's not go to Caledonia. It is a silly place.

Thank you, DOP! Much appreciated!

And there you have it. Jennie's next alias should be Dennis!

[kengs333]

Any government that caved to such ridiculous demands would be hooted out of office by Canadian citizens. The natives in effect would be expecting such a government to commit political suicide.

So what, though? All of these politicians can crawl back to lucrative jobs. Politicians become politicians because they like the status and distinction, and so getting booted out of office is little more than a shot to the ego. If they eventually make a deal with Six Nations, then a couple decades from now when they write their books or are interviewed about the issue they can wax poetic about the political and historical importance of supposedly "doing the right thing" even if it pissed off a lot of voters. Not the first time something like this has happened. In the end, each of us who only participates in the process by simply voting every few years, is really worthless and are never given much consideration when these deals are being made.

[joan]

Of course you did.

And have they submitted themselves as a witness? It will be interesting to see if the witness is charged with perjury once all the facts are in court.

I was told there is some video, outside the house, of the builders waiting at their vehicles.

[joan]

Actually two of the three have been to court. Apparently your version is still a fabrication. It was actually the 15 year old threatening with death. Sorry, no video either.

P.S. Jennie also said "It's just a friggen flag!" How strange.

Only for bail, prelim, no evidence, no trial yet.

It's a commonly used expression in some circles, eh?

Edited January 30, 2008 by joan

[joan]

He was an OLD MAN! They were teenagers!

What glory! What honour!

I'm surprised those young lads didn't feel the need to use a howitzer to defend themselves from the old geezer...

Every time we hear of this sort of thuggery we get a steaming load of historical revisionism about how it didn't really happen, or they were forced into it, or an old man was actually a Kung Fu ninja warrior armed with razor sharp shiraken, or the situation was a faked putup by white racists trying to make natives look bad or yadda, yadda, yadda...

Goebbels would be proud...

yadda yadda yadda is right at least!

52 ... and he might not be happy to be called a 'geezer'

[Wild Bill]

yadda yadda yadda is right at least!

52 ... and he might not be happy to be called a 'geezer'

http://www.thespec.com/article/255859

The youths charged appear at the end of this article. Two aged 18 and one aged 15. They couldn't handle a 52 year old man? For that matter, couldn't they have simply ran away from him and got some adults involved that could have escorted him out of the house?

And this link has the initial report of his injuries, which later were reported as even more serious.

http://www.thespec.com/article/248482

"Yep! It was self defence, officer! The old guy attacked us so we had no choice but to beat him into a coma! That old guy is some kind of ninja!"

Again, Goebbels would be proud! It's incidents like these that make me think the best solution to the Six Nations dispute is a Gaza Strip style wall. For reason to work both parties must be reasonable.

[Rue]

The thing is land deeds were issued. This means payment for parcels of land was made from settler to the goverment, which was acting on behalf of the Six Nations as you note. This is why the Six Nations could claim monetary damages against the government, but cannot claim the land. For example:

http://aaron.ca/columns/2006-05-27.htm

Just a point of legal clarification. The government did not act on behalf of the Six Nations. It acted unilaterally and in direct violation of its legal obligation to the Six Nations. It had no legal authority or right to take the land and re-sell it. This is why we have a legal dispute today. In fact the federal government lawyers have conceded as much and what is holding things up is the fact that the aboriginals have a legal right recognized by the Charter, constitution and Supreme Court of Canada as to that land.

[M.Dancer]

I was told there is some video, outside the house, of the builders waiting at their vehicles.

Well then if there is and it hasn't already been submitted as evidence then it won't be.

So in effect I would wager there is no video.

[noahbody]

Just a point of legal clarification. The government did not act on behalf of the Six Nations. It acted unilaterally and in direct violation of its legal obligation to the Six Nations. It had no legal authority or right to take the land and re-sell it. This is why we have a legal dispute today. In fact the federal government lawyers have conceded as much and what is holding things up is the fact that the aboriginals have a legal right recognized by the Charter, constitution and Supreme Court of Canada as to that land.

We're talking about the '41 agreement, so yes they did. I believe you're referring to some of the blocks the Brant sold/leased that were in default.

[noahbody]

During the hearing, Crown prosecutor Shane Hickingbottom provided the first detailed police version of the attack, which has been mired in controversy and conflicting stories from the start.

He said the incident started at about 4 p.m. when Gualtieri and three of his workers went to check a house he was building for his daughter and her fiancée.

He was concerned because the site had become the subject of a land claims dispute and he had seen a protester hoisting a Six Nations flag by the house earlier in the day.

Inside the partially constructed building, Hickingbottom said, Gualtieri and his workers were confronted by three young intruders who refused to leave, swore at them and challenged the builder to a fight.

During the ensuing melee, the prosecutor alleged, the 15-year-old put a headlock on one of the workers and applied so much pressure he had difficulty breathing.

He eventually let him go but later allegedly said, “I should have broken your neck while I had the chance.”

There is no allegation that he directly attacked Sam Gualtieri, who became involved in an altercation with another suspect.

Hickingbottom said one of the workers saw another teenager — wanted on a warrant for aggravated assault — striking Gualtieri on the head with a wooden club.

The worker yelled at the man who fled the scene.

By this time, a number of other protesters had gathered around the house, including a native elder who helped defuse the incident by ordering the alleged assailants to leave.

The third suspect, who faces an assault charge, was allegedly involved in a struggle with another construction worker.

www.hamiltonspectator.com/pdfs/20070929/A4.pdf

[charter.rights]

He said the incident started at about 4 p.m. when Gualtieri and three of his workers.....

It was 4 adults against 3 youths, the youngest at 15. Seems to me that when Gualtieri showed up and "confronted" the youths they were intent on using force against them. However, it appears that the adults got the short end of the stick. It also sounds to me like self-defense is plausible, since had the workers stayed away as they were ordered to by the OPP, nothing would have happened.

Of course we do have to wait for the trial for all the facts to come out but sensational media is not a court of law and the Spectator has shown to be biased and even racist against native people.

Edited January 30, 2008 by charter.rights

[noahbody]

It was 4 adults against 3 youths, the youngest at 15.

Byron Powless and Richard Smoke were both adults, sorry.

It also sounds to me like self-defense is plausible, since had the workers stayed away as they were ordered to by the OPP, nothing would have happened.

That's when the judge does this:

Of course we do have to wait for the trial for all the facts to come out but sensational media is not a court of law and the Spectator has shown to be biased and even racist against native people.

You might want to take into consideration the inaccuracies of the accused original version (i.e 5 on 2). Hint: this is known as lying.

[gc1765]

Europe was also a trading empire that spanned the Globe and enriched itself to the point where an inductrial revolution was not only possible it became a manifest destiny.

Kenyans could count on trading to the next village...

You mean like how Europe traded with Natives in North America and Africans?

So, I guess what you're saying is that Natives helped Europeans to become rich?

[M.Dancer]

You mean like how Europe traded with Natives in North America and Africans?

So, I guess what you're saying is that Natives helped Europeans to become rich?

Absolutely. The spanish got so much gold from south america they created an inflationary state.

Mind you, an economy like Kenya's doesn't create a fleet of trading ships to span the globe so of course they could evolve into a mercantile economy. Which is why they didn't evolve much at all. Their society pretty much stayed the same from the time of the iron age.