Muslim father chokes daughter to near death

[Pliny]

Your link doesn't cite a study; it cite's a commentary on a study. I see no data at all in that commentary, nor do I see anything other than opinions quoted from the study along with the opinions of the author of the editorial. Do you have a link to the acutal study? That I'd love to see.

Sounds as if someone took statistics about crime, std's, etc. and concluded that belief in God is somehow connected because our nation has the highest percentage of believers. Sort of like 'the U.S. has the highest murder rate, etc., of any prosperous democracy and it has the highest percentage of believers, so believing must be a bad thing.' Another just as ridiculous 'conclusion' to be made from such a study would be 'the U.S. has the highest rate of murder, etc., and also has the highest Mexican population of any prosperous democracy,' therefore having a high population of Mexicans must be a bad thing.

I see nothing in the commentary or quotes from the study that in any way, shape, or form prove a connection between believing in God and our crime rate, abortion rate, std's, etc. But applying that line of thought, perhaps those lobbying for tougher gun control laws should be informed that it's not gun possession that's a problem, but belief in God. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

Btw, here's another commentary on "many studies" that say America is the most charitable nation in the world. "These studies show that Americans give far more towards helping out their fellow man, in times of trouble, than any other private citizenry in the world."

So according to those studies, using the same line of thought, belief in God would be a good thing.

I would rarely agree with you on any topic but this was a good post and on the mark. Now we have to hold scientific rhetoric and demagoguery regarding any subject to the same scrutiny.

[M.Dancer]

That's sad that when a person makes it clear that they have no respect for their own body and self, or for others they ensnare in their sinful game of self-gratification, there's absolutely no cause for concern from the likes of moral relativists such as yourself.

Nice insult there..oww I'm hurt to the bone.

But in otherwords what you are saying is her posts, because you don't agree with ideas that gives you the right to hurls sexual insults at her.

Nice position to have there Mr. Fake Christian...

[Rue]

jerry, what's up for dispute is whether this is representative of all Muslims or immigrants. That's the real crux of the matter.

"Islamania apologists" is gold. And your crush on me, while flattering, is also creepy.

There are cross cultural issues (including fundamental religious values in this case Islamic ones) and gender issues involved. This could happen to any group moving from one culture to another. Its o.k. to examine what role Islam or any religion may be playing in this. It can be done openly and intelligently without smeering Muslims or immigrants.

I really believe Black Dog the kind of people who try exploit such tragedies to advance their own agendas of intolerance may sound like they are making a lot of noise but no one remembers them or even hears them.

What people do remember is a rational legal system, remaining unemotional, dettached and dealing with this matter in a fair, rational, and meaningful manner so we can learn from it so that we can prevent it from happening again.

Edited December 18, 2007 by Rue

[Drea]

That's sad that when a person makes it clear that they have no respect for their own body and self, or for others they ensnare in their sinful game of self-gratification, there's absolutely no cause for concern from the likes of moral relativists such as yourself

This is my favourite post. It shows the true colours of a so-called "Christian".

And assures me that I am correct in my position that religion is an antiquated notion that belongs in the basement of the Smithsonian.

Thank you Kengs333 for being you!

...rest assured one day (maybe when you are grown up) you too will have an enjoyable sexual experience.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Can we get back to the topic here?

Look at what the last couple of posts have addressed. Do you see what lefties are spectacularly good at? CHANGING THE SUBJECT.

DEFLECT DEFLECT DEFLECT.

Talk about a Muslim man killing his daughter because of his religion?

Change the subject to RACISM.

Talk about a Muslim man killing his daughter because of his religion?

Divert the focus to evil CHRISTIANS.

Muslims all over the world kill and abuse women based upon religion. It's a cultural problem within Islam, and now it's ben imported to Toronto, Canada.

Is this something we, as a society, are willing to accept in the name of cultural / religious "tolerance"?

The reason Islamic groups reckslessly throw around the words "intolerance" or "racism" is because they have studied our society well, and understand that this is a hot button that will gain them some strong footing to maintain THEIR values and push us around.

Are we going to cowtow to this?

This is the issue.

Address it. Don't deflect.

[Drea]

He will face prison time. What more do you want?

Do you want the muslim community to stand up and denounce it? His head on a stick? Muslims run out of the country? What do you want to happen?

In an ideal rightwing world... what would be the outcome of this horrific tragedy?

[M.Dancer]

This is the issue.

Address it. Don't deflect.

*yawn*

The issue is a father killed his daughter. The reason he killed her is still unknown.

But please, don't hesitate to jump in and rant and rave and spittle and froth as is you have a secret fount of knowledge......

[ScottSA]

There are cross cultural issues and gender issues involved here. This could happen to any group or any particulr group moving from one culture to another. What we say is a clash or conflict in cultural values. Yes of course cultural values are deeply entwined with issues as to gender, religion, sexuality, social norms, economic status, language, etc.

This kind of tragedy is bound to happen. As the world shrinks and people move from very fundamental traditional societies where their relgions and cultures teach them particular concepts as to the role of males, morality and God to our Western one, this happens as one generation begins to make the transition to the Western culture while their parents do not.

Our democractic values nurture multi-culturalism and encourage people to retain their cultural identity and yet at the same time we also expect people to conform to our laws, i.e., fmaily laws, freedom of expression rights. So we send conflicting signals. On the one hand we say-its cool retain all your traditions we are cool in Canada.

On the other hand this open acceptance has limitations for us all. None of us is above the law. None of us from any culture(religion) has the right to put our hands on women, beat them.

Some of us as you can see by the Keng responses use religion as a pretext to try rationalize the compulsion to control people and if need be humiliate or abuse them if they do not do what their Master says.

We see religions (all religions) used as weapons and tools of coercion and abuse. Is it typical of immirants black dog says? I do not blame imigrants or stereotype them. What I do say, frankly and candidly is yes-anyone coming from a different culture to ours, and will try prevent their children from changing and sees our values as hostile to what they want to teach their children, will experience this. Will they become this violent, hopefuly not.

All parents fight with their teen-agers, whether they are from another culture or not. Teen-agers create their own culture. They try make the transition into adulthood at the best of times by doing a very common exercise. They keep one foot in the door, so they can come home to dinner and hopefully a shower and parents who don't need to be their friends but are there for them, but on the other hand they stretch with that other foot as far as they can go experimenting, developing their identity by contrasting new with what is in their family and of course their family becomes the reference point to contrast and test new views.

I would say this family obviously was clinging to what it thought were values it expected of its daughter and it saw her friends as an extension of a corupt society changing their daughter from a humble obedient extension of her father's identity to some individual whose identity was not dependent on her father or traditional culture values but on what her peers deemed normal. Thus they shut the world they see as hostile out of their funeral blaming it and its symbol her peers as coruption influences.

Condensed top it's unadorned particulars, this post says: 'the west sends conflicting signals between rule of law and multicult, and people will be people.'

Of course, coming from Rue, it couldn't stop there, but had to rumble dustily along with all sorts of streetcorner psychology, confused concepts (multicult = democracy etc), and a few kicks at Keng.

[JerrySeinfeld]

He will face prison time. What more do you want?

Do you want the muslim community to stand up and denounce it? His head on a stick? Muslims run out of the country? What do you want to happen?

In an ideal rightwing world... what would be the outcome of this horrific tragedy?

What do I want? Context.

This is a dialogue that should be had within a multiculti nation.

Sure - one Muslim who kills his daughter in and of itself is not huge. But if you look overseas in Europe, arguably a similar model to Canada but further along on the immigration train (ie. possibly a look into our future), you can see alot more honour killings happening.

If we are going to finance lavish social programs by the mass-importing of people of different cultures and beliefs, perhaps we should all consider the longer term implications of such a strategy - particularly when our stated government policy (multiculturalism) explicitly discourages integration and common values. Are we importing new valus we all disagree with?

If the Canadian Islamic Congress can, through the use of Human Rights Tribunals outwardly oppose and try to squash one of our most fundamental freedoms: FREEDOM OF SPEECH, then how far are we from acceptnig Sharia Law?

This isn't that far from reality already in some democracies. Is Canada that different from Australia? Because over there, Police have been instructed to ignore cases of Muslim domestic violence due to "cultral habits and traditions".

Sure - these countries aren't Canada, but it's important that people like myself, ScottSA and others speak out so that this kind of ridiculousness doesn't creep it's way into Canada under the guise of "progressiveness".

[Guest American Woman]

Sure - one Muslim who kills his daughter in and of itself is not huge. But if you look overseas in Europe, arguably a similar model to Canada but further along on the immigration train (ie. possibly a look into our future), you can see alot more honour killings happening.

It does appear to be a growing problem in Europe. I think it is important to recognize that with people from extremely different cultures come extremely different values. We all possess some of the values of the cultures we grew up in. That's the way of it. So if we are going to 'accept' people from these cultures, and I most definitely am not against immigration, I think it takes more than being open to accepting them and letting them in. I think it takes some 'education' on both sides.

Is Canada that different from Australia? Because over there, Police have been instructed to ignore cases of Muslim domestic violence due to "cultral habits and traditions".

Do you have a link to back up your claim that police in Australia have been instructed to ignore Muslim cases of domestic violence? Because I find that extremely difficult to believe.

Sure - these countries aren't Canada, but it's important that people like myself, ScottSA and others speak out so that this kind of ridiculousness doesn't creep it's way into Canada under the guise of "progressiveness".

I do think it's important not to be afraid to think one's culture might play into some of the crimes/violence that occur out of fear of not being PC. I've posted links to articles that say it's not unique to the countries of origin as people from countries that condone honor killings/violence against women move to western societies.

However, I don't think your fear that they will take over Canada is founded. I think your concern should be with trying to help people from extremely different cultures make the transition into your society. I think that would benefit both the immigrants and Canada (et al) as a nation.

[Rue]

Condensed top it's unadorned particulars, this post says: 'the west sends conflicting signals between rule of law and multicult, and people will be people.'

Of course, coming from Rue, it couldn't stop there, but had to rumble dustily along with all sorts of streetcorner psychology, confused concepts (multicult = democracy etc), and a few kicks at Keng.

Glad you enjoy it Scott considering I am sure you feel this homicide is an opportunity to promote your agenda that the world as we know it is crumbling because of people that do not share your moral values. But wait I am not done.

[Rue]

Keng You responded to three posters using insulting and abusive language when they expressed disagreement with your remark to Scott as to the sexual position of women in response to this series of posts.

The point is Keng your comments were abusive, inapropriate and only compounded when you defended them with further insults and in fact made it clear you do not care about other peoples' feelings, so yes Keng the pretence of you being a Christian is over.

Now you can call me all the names you want but I will continue to challenge you or Scott or anyone else who thinks they can use this homicide as a platform for their own agendas.

In the case of Scott, he has been consistent in advancing an arguement that generalizes all Muslims as hostile to Western values so I would expect him to use this homicide to advance his arguement

In your case Keng, you have done something I challenge directly and that is you use Christianity as a pretext to suggest this homicide victim was immoral and brought her problems on her self and to suggest women are evil and immoral unless they subscribe to your values.

We still do not know what your values are Keng because while you did state you are a member of a particular Christian denomination you refuse to tell anyone what it is just as you claim to be an expert on the new testament, German history, the holocaust, and women's issues but won't disclose your academic expertise.

So yes Kening I continue to challenge you on what you continue to say.

Now here is what I challenge you on this time Keng-this homicide was not caused because this young girl did not follow a certain moral script-it happened because her father lost control just as you do in your responses Keng.

Edited December 18, 2007 by Rue

[kengs333]

What people do remember is a rational legal system, remaining unemotional, dettached and dealing with this matter in a fair, rational, and meaningful manner so we can learn from it so that we can prevent it from happening again.

Are we talking about Canada?

[kengs333]

Now here is what I challenge you on this time Keng-this homicide was not caused because this young girl did not follow a certain moral script-it happened because her father lost control just as you do in your responses Keng.

You specifically name me EIGHT times in this post. You don't think that this is a tad excessive, even obsessive?

[Rue]

Condensed top it's unadorned particulars, this post says: 'the west sends conflicting signals between rule of law and multicult, and people will be people.'

Of course, coming from Rue, it couldn't stop there, but had to rumble dustily along with all sorts of streetcorner psychology, confused concepts (multicult = democracy etc), and a few kicks at Keng.

Actually Scott I edited the post as you were responding to it so its no longer there. Lol. You know I do so hard to try control myself for you. By the way Crusader, in your buddy's world you will be right there smack dab beside me in hell. Do you really think you get an exemption? Doesn't work that way Scott. Lol.

Edited December 18, 2007 by Rue

[AngusThermopyle]

Now here is what I challenge you on this time Keng-this homicide was not caused because this young girl did not follow a certain moral script-it happened because her father lost control just as you do in your responses Keng.

Sorry Rue, I think you're way off base with that one. I think it happened exactly because she refused as you put it "to follow a certain moral script". It has been mentioned previously that it's pretty hard to strangle someone to death in a "heat of the moment" sort of scenario. You really have to work at it, it takes a rather lengthy amount of time to do this. In fact you have to keep strangling after the victim looses consciousness. It's not like he struck her on the head or anything, he strangled her, not choked, or put his hand over her mouth and nose for a while, strangled.

From all indications it certainly was morally or culturally inspired. So far I haven't found anything that would indicate it was accidental, lots that indicates a cultural influence though. Besides, how the hell do you accidentally strangle someone? It's the real world, you have to make a deliberate effort to do so. I know you find this disturbing as its at odds with your world view and adoration of the cult of multi-cult but unfortunately these things do happen in the real world.

[Black Dog]

Muslims all over the world kill and abuse women based upon religion. It's a cultural problem within Islam, and now it's ben imported to Toronto, Canada.

Actually it seems to be a cultural problem among mostly poor, uneducated societies where traditional patriarchal family and tribal structures are the norm. To state it as a religious problem per se implies that this wouldn't be happening but for the religion, which is unlikely.

[Guest American Woman]

To those who keep insisting Islam/culture of Islamic nations had nothing to do with this murder, I have to wonder why you are so unwilling to entertain the possibility; not to condemn Islam, but to recognize what is a growing problem in the Western world and in hope that nations will see this and take steps to help. I posted an editorial that says 'yes, this is a problem in Europe but wouldn't happen in Canada' and still no responses to that. It's a 'stick your head in the sand' attitude that not only doesn't help solve anything, but will allow it to go on ("All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing").

"I hope she becomes a beacon of hope for all the girls who are in a similar situation living like a hostage in their homes," a Pakistani-Canadian has said, commenting on 16-year-old Aqsa Parvez’s murder by her father because she would not wear the hijab.

Syed Shah, an IT specialist, told the Toronto Sun that Aqsa’s "tragic demise should be an eye opener for those ‘traditional’ fathers who are living in Canada yet are still trapped in the 15th century mind frame."

Another Canadian Muslim, retired professor Dr Mahfooz Kanwar said Aqsa’s death had all the marks of an honour killing by a man who felt his religion and family were being disrespected. Link

It IS a problem, one that isn't restricted to new immigrants-- raised in poor, undeveloped Islamic nations-- but among European born Muslims, also.

Moderate Islamic groups and some European leaders are warning that honor killings reflect a trend of fundamentalism that sneers at Western laws and values.

''There are two societies with two different value systems living side by side -- but wholly apart -- in Europe," said Seyran Ates, a Berlin lawyer of Turkish origin who often works with women trying to escape forced marriages.

The first two generations of immigrants, Ates said, found plentiful jobs and were generally content. But the generation of European-born Muslims now coming of age, Ates said, ''never integrated into Western society [and] are becoming more and more conservative, not less so."

The rise of fundamentalism among Muslims in Europe can be blamed, at least partially, on the failure of countries to integrate the millions of Muslims who started arriving in large numbers in the 1960s.

Link--(an article well worth reading)

Women and girls are paying the price. I would hope we'd all put aside fears of being un-PC and recognize that.

As Europe's Muslims become increasingly conservative, growing numbers of women are being killed or mutilated in the name of ''family honor," according to law enforcement agencies, women's activist groups, and moderate Islamic organizations.

Moderate Islamic organizations are recognizing the problem, so it's not 'anti-Islamic' to see it and be alarmed by it.

[Black Dog]

To those who keep insisting Islam/culture of Islamic nations had nothing to do with this murder, I have to wonder why you are so unwilling to entertain the possibility; not to condemn Islam, but to recognize what is a growing problem in the Western world and in hope that nations will see this and take steps to help.

Well, I know what the visceral reaction for that notion would be in some circles. To wit: could you be any more paternalistic?

Now that's not my reaction....

Moderate Islamic organizations are recognizing the problem, so it's not 'anti-Islamic' to see it and be alarmed by it.

I have no problem with members of the Islamic community recognizing these problems and working to correct them. Nor do I disagree that women here by and large have it a damn sight better than women in many other societies around the world. There's a problem there. It must be fixed. How do to that, I don't know, but I can't help but think that lumping all immigrants of certain faiths as homicidal misogynist maniacs and suggesting that they all go back from whence they came is a solution to the problem, unless one defines the problem not as "religiously-motivated violence against women", but "religiously-motivated violence against women that I have to read about."

Another bothersome tic here is that I know in my mind-grapes that the very people who become champions of women's rights when the oppressors are brown would be the first to deny that there's any progress to be made wrt to women's rights within western society. For example, even mentioning the phrase "violence against women" will usually draw a response like this:

Violence is something that predominantly happens against men in this society, but despite the expectation that we view women as equals, whenever women are the victims of violence there is a disproportionately greater amount of sympathy for them than there is for men.

As though the power dynamics involved and specifics of each situation are irrelevant (unless one of those specifics is the religion of the perpetrator).

It's the cynical and dishonest manipulation and "tsk tsk"-ing this tragedy has prompted that gets my goat.

[AngusThermopyle]

I can't help but think that lumping all immigrants of certain faiths as homicidal misogynist maniacs and suggesting that they all go back from whence they came is a solution to the problem,

You like to generalize as much as those you criticize. I would say that only a few posters believe what you state, yet you phrase it in such a way as to include any who recognize this situation for what it is. The result of archaic cultural practices.

You further marginalize the legitimate concerns of others by using the patronizing term tsk tsk. Please do not lump those who recognize a problem in with those you imagine want what you stated. Bottom line is that this is a culturally influenced situation. I don't think it's being racist to state that these sort of actions have no place in our society and should never have been tolerated in the least by anyone in the first place. If you do believe this sort of attitude is acceptable then go ahead and fill yer boots, just don't expect me to ever agree with such a ridiculous attitude.

[kengs333]

Actually it seems to be a cultural problem among mostly poor, uneducated societies where traditional patriarchal family and tribal structures are the norm. To state it as a religious problem per se implies that this wouldn't be happening but for the religion, which is unlikely.

I highly doubt that "patriarchal family and tribal structures" has anything to do with this. First of all, we really don't know what a matriarchal society would be like; the only one I've heard of is in China, and, well, needless to say I'm not overly impressed. Historically, if you care to believe certain archeologists, there may have been matriarchal societies, but they were weak and incapable of defending themselves, and were conquered by patriarchal societies. There are some remnants of these societies, and not surprisingly they are centered around illicit sexuality, namely the reverence of female sexual manipulation and deceit. Who knows what primative level civilization would still find itself on had patriarchy not rightfully done away with such things, and taken us in a direction where humans have been able to advance to a state of intellectual and scientific greatness.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Do you have a link to back up your claim that police in Australia have been instructed to ignore Muslim cases of domestic violence? Because I find that extremely difficult to believe.

Here ya go...

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read...8-FCC9F14C73A1}

However, I don't think your fear that they will take over Canada is founded.

Well, maybe not in the near term, however if the Canadian Islamic Congress can assault Freedom of Speech, and the above can happen in Australia, and Euro national governments are debating the merits of implementing Sharia Law, what's next?

I places like Canada an the US, where the assault on our core values hasn't been as severe (yet), isn't it good to be talking about these things now, rather than when it's too late (as it is in Europe)?

Too many in our society are convinced things will "always be as they are now", when really the idea of American style freedom and democracy are starting to look more and more like a 100 year window of freedom sandwiched into centuries of horribleness on both sides.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Actually it seems to be a cultural problem among mostly poor, uneducated societies where traditional patriarchal family and tribal structures are the norm. To state it as a religious problem per se implies that this wouldn't be happening but for the religion, which is unlikely.

Doogy - you're all over the map. Now you're blaming the poor. Didn't I read a post of yours yesterday claiming to "hate priviledge - especially the unearned variety"?

By the way - you should have that (irrational unprovoked hatred) looked at (feeling of inadequacy - or perhaps something else you and your therapist can explore?)

[Black Dog]

del double post

Edited December 18, 2007 by Black Dog

[Black Dog]

kengs:

I highly doubt that "patriarchal family and tribal structures" has anything to do with this. First of all, we really don't know what a matriarchal society would be like; the only one I've heard of is in China, and, well, needless to say I'm not overly impressed. Historically, if you care to believe certain archeologists, there may have been matriarchal societies, but they were weak and incapable of defending themselves, and were conquered by patriarchal societies. There are some remnants of these societies, and not surprisingly they are centered around illicit sexuality, namely the reverence of female sexual manipulation and deceit. Who knows what primative level civilization would still find itself on had patriarchy not rightfully done away with such things, and taken us in a direction where humans have been able to advance to a state of intellectual and scientific greatness.

So let me get this straight: you say patriarchal social structures have nothing to do with and then go on to explain that those are the only social structures we have. Can you explain this? Actually, don't. You're a loon.

AngusT

You like to generalize as much as those you criticize. I would say that only a few posters believe what you state, yet you phrase it in such a way as to include any who recognize this situation for what it is. The result of archaic cultural practices.

And from where do those cultural practices flow?

You further marginalize the legitimate concerns of others by using the patronizing term tsk tsk. Please do not lump those who recognize a problem in with those you imagine want what you stated. Bottom line is that this is a culturally influenced situation. I don't think it's being racist to state that these sort of actions have no place in our society and should never have been tolerated in the least by anyone in the first place. If you do believe this sort of attitude is acceptable then go ahead and fill yer boots, just don't expect me to ever agree with such a ridiculous attitude.

I think such practices are unacceptable in any society, which is more of a qualifier than I've seen from most here.

and of course, Jerry chimes in with a demonstration of his trademark readig comprehension troubles....

Doogy - you're all over the map. Now you're blaming the poor. Didn't I read a post of yours yesterday claiming to "hate priviledge - especially the unearned variety"?

...and bogus basement psychoanalyzing.

By the way - you should have that (irrational unprovoked hatred) looked at (feeling of inadequacy - or perhaps something else you and your therapist can explore?)