Climate Change Skepticism

[Riverwind]

Let's be clear. He said that emissions cause global warming. He accepted that science. You don't think that is sincere? Yes or no?

I agree that '[CO2] emissions cause global warming' so I suspect Harper is sincere. The issue is not whether CO2 causes temperatures to rise. The issue is how much. I feel that we could do nothing and CO2 will cause no more than 1 degC in temperature increase over the next 100 years. Edited December 17, 2007 by Riverwind

[jdobbin]

I agree that '[CO2] emissions cause global warming' so I suspect Harper is sincere. The issue is not whether CO2 causes temperatures to rise. The issue is how much. I feel that we could do nothing and CO2 will cause no more than 1 degC in temperature increase over the next 100 years.

That is not how far Harper has gone in agreeing that emissions cause global warming. He has said they have to be reduced. They only dispute among the parties is how fast and by how much among the parties.

For people who don't accept this is an issue, it must be a big letdown.

[jdobbin]

What are you trying to do? Have Conservatives put words in Harper's mouth? To what end? Who cares if he "accepts" fairy tales? All I care about is that he doesn't plan to bankrupt the country over the emperor's new clothes.

That might be all you care about but for some on the right, any action on emissions is considered to be unnecessary. For some, it might be a reason to seek a new party to vote for.

Edited December 17, 2007 by jdobbin

[Riverwind]

That is not how far Harper has gone in agreeing that emissions cause global warming. He has said they have to be reduced. They only dispute among the parties is how fast and by how much among the parties.

Again, I don't have an issue with reducing CO2 emissions because there are many environmental and economic benefits that would accompany such efforts. However, I think reducing CO2 for the sake of CO2 is a waste of time and carbon credits are a recipe for fraud.

[jdobbin]

Again, I don't have an issue with reducing CO2 emissions because there are many environmental and economic benefits that would accompany such efforts. However, I think reducing CO2 for the sake of CO2 is a waste of time and carbon credits are a recipe for fraud.

There are many on the right who disagree with ant emissions reductions.

[capricorn]

jd is trying very hard to get a Conservative poster to say he/she is "angry" with Harper/Baird or "feel letdown" that Canada signed an agreement in Bali. That didn't work. Then he asks if Harper is "sincere" when he says he agrees that global warming is occurring. Very interesting indeed.

[jdobbin]

jd is trying very hard to get a Conservative poster to say he/she is "angry" with Harper/Baird or "feel letdown" that Canada signed an agreement in Bali. That didn't work. Then he asks if Harper is "sincere" when he says he agrees that global warming is occurring. Very interesting indeed.

We keep hearing how many posters question the science here. We hear how some don't believe in global warming. We hear other saying they don't believe in reductions in emissions. Harper has accepted all of these.

So, we have two choices: 1) Harper really believes this and his actions, however slow, will be to follow the majority opinion on the science and get the entire world to reduce emissions. This cannot help but irritate many on the right wing who don't believe in any of this and who don't want action however slow it is. 2) Harper really doesn't mean what he says and it is all part of a hidden agenda.

Take your pick.

[capricorn]

Take your pick.

I'll take option number 3 which you failed to mention. That the Conservatives went to Bali and signed an agreement which most Canadians can live with. Even Lizzie May is pleased.

You must be very angry that the signatory for Canada is a Conservative and not a Liberal.

[jbg]

Look, if we don’t ratify Kyoto, at least some deaths of some people in the immediate future, from some cause, are highly likely. </sarcasm >

[jdobbin]

I'll take option number 3 which you failed to mention. That the Conservatives went to Bali and signed an agreement which most Canadians can live with. Even Lizzie May is pleased.

You must be very angry that the signatory for Canada is a Conservative and not a Liberal.

I'm totally pleased that Baird and Harper were not able to completely sabotage the conference. The pressure is now on them to actually start meaningful work on the issue rather than the loophole filled legislation that they last last tried to foist on Parliament.

However, for right wingers who don't believe in emissions, they must be purple in the face.

Edited December 17, 2007 by jdobbin

[jbg]

I'm totally pleased that Baird and Harper were not able to completely sabotage the conference.

I suppose you'll give up your car first?

[ScottSA]

You must be very angry that the signatory for Canada is a Conservative and not a Liberal.

He must also be angry that the Liberals signed much the same thing and completely ignored it. He must be angry that we're not angry. What an angry man he must be.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm totally pleased that Baird and Harper were not able to completely sabotage the conference. The pressure is now on them to actually start meaningful work on the issue rather than the loophole filled legislation that they last last tried to foist on Parliament.

Sure...much like the "pressure" on the Liberals and Kyoto. We saw where that went.

However, for right wingers who don't believe in emissions, they must be purple in the face.

Actually, they are delighted. The US got exactly what it wanted....a consensus UN agreement to have more meetings (and do more of nothing). Had nothing to do with Canada "bringing" the US on side.

[jdobbin]

He must also be angry that the Liberals signed much the same thing and completely ignored it. He must be angry that we're not angry. What an angry man he must be.

You sound very angry. Time for a hug?

[jbg]

Apparently this guy (link) believes we're all going to die. He burst into tears and had to be led out the room! ROFL, I'm not one to shun impending doom and catastrophes, but don't you think some people are taking this a little too far?

It's bad enough when this happens to adults. In school, they're scaring the living daylights out of children with this garbage.

Excerpts from article (link):

Mr de Boer, distinctively dressed in a floral shirt, stepped up to the microphone to defend his staff - only to find that the words would no longer come.

As his unfinished sentences trailed away, he broke down and walked off the platform to supportive applause.

"He wasn't just wiping his eyes, he was in floods of tears," said one observer.

"Three colleagues - one of them a woman - formed a protective group around him and escorted him out of the hall. It was all very dramatic."

Mr de Boer's breakdown came after nearly a fortnight of squabbling over proposals to cut carbon emissions.

Edited December 17, 2007 by jbg

[capricorn]

However, for right wingers who don't believe in emissions, they must be purple in the face.

Well then, we won't bother with a poll. We'll just count purple faces.

[jdobbin]

Well then, we won't bother with a poll. We'll just count purple faces.

I await the purple face poll. heh

I'll settle for a new poll this week. I'm sure we have a few things that could affect the data. There is the Harper authoritative statement that there will be nuclear accident because he an expert. There is the aftermath of the Mulroney testimony where people prior to him speaking had already given more credence to Shreiber. And then there is Bali which showed Baird hiding from meetings to obstruct an agreement and ultimately failing.

[Riverwind]

ROFL, I'm not one to shun impending doom and catastrophes, but don't you think some people are taking this a little too far?

More evidence that these people cannot be trusted to assess the scientific facts objectively.

[Canuck E Stan]

Harper has said he accepts the science of global warming. You think he is sincere?

Typical Dobbin bull.

Always trying to put people on the defensive about Harper,but never telling us and supporting what the Liberal plan actually is.

Try for once defending Dion's stance, and tell us what he intends to do,we can see what Harper is doing(and he is doing something),I don't see a game plan from Dion or the Liberal party,only attacks at what they claim is wrong with what Harper is doing.

Give us an Liberal solution, in concept, and the dollars and cents as to what the Liberals will do for the nation.In terms of environment and the economy.

Maybe this is the strategy of the Liberals,because they don't have an answer. Nor do they want Canadians to know they actually don't have a plan.

[capricorn]

jd, what if all those purple faces are due to exposure to extreme cold weather? Skews the results.

Yes there will be a new poll. Yes the data will be different. We shall see won't we.

Remember to start a new thread for 2008 polls. That's what you promised in the MLW support forum.

[jbg]

Typical Dobbin bull.

****

Maybe this is the strategy of the Liberals,because they don't have an answer. Nor do they want Canadians to know they actually don't have a plan.

That plus ignoring questions they don't like.

[Wild Bill]

That might be all you care about but for some on the right, any action on emissions is considered to be unnecessary. For some, it might be a reason to seek a new party to vote for.

Well, just for purposes of argument let's assume that you are 100% correct that Harper has let me down and that's a reason for me to seek a "new party to vote for".

Now what? I haven't a single other blessed choice! All of the other parties seem even worse to me!

Proving one choice smells bad doesn't automatically make another smell sweet!

I'm afraid that even if it were true your suggestion is of no value to me and perhaps others of similar persuasion.

[jdobbin]

Well, just for purposes of argument let's assume that you are 100% correct that Harper has let me down and that's a reason for me to seek a "new party to vote for".

Now what? I haven't a single other blessed choice! All of the other parties seem even worse to me!

Proving one choice smells bad doesn't automatically make another smell sweet!

I'm afraid that even if it were true your suggestion is of no value to me and perhaps others of similar persuasion.

You can start your own party. Just like Harper did.

[jdobbin]

Typical Dobbin bull.

Always trying to put people on the defensive about Harper,but never telling us and supporting what the Liberal plan actually is.

Try for once defending Dion's stance, and tell us what he intends to do,we can see what Harper is doing(and he is doing something),I don't see a game plan from Dion or the Liberal party,only attacks at what they claim is wrong with what Harper is doing.

Give us an Liberal solution, in concept, and the dollars and cents as to what the Liberals will do for the nation.In terms of environment and the economy.

Maybe this is the strategy of the Liberals,because they don't have an answer. Nor do they want Canadians to know they actually don't have a plan.

A bit of a diversion from that fact that Harper has twice tried to get an environment policy through. The first was dead on arrival because it ignored greenhouse gases. The second went through the committee and was disowned by Harper.

I don't defend the Liberal policy on Kyoto. Chretien made it a low priority. Martin gave it more of a focus but it was already years behind what other nations were doing. I didn't support Dion in the leadership convention either.

Harper's didn't have a policy on it during the election or in his first environment bill. His second bill was so full of loopholes as to be useless. He has been against Kyoto, expressed doubts on the science and then when it appeared this was a problem for electability said he now embraced global warming. The problem was that he was still against really doing anything and has tried to obstruct for the last two plus years.

I've criticized both Liberals and Conservatives on global warming. I believe Harper is less committed than any leader in Canada though.

[jdobbin]

jd, what if all those purple faces are due to exposure to extreme cold weather? Skews the results.

Yes there will be a new poll. Yes the data will be different. We shall see won't we.

Remember to start a new thread for 2008 polls. That's what you promised in the MLW support forum.

Yes, I imagine that some of those purple faces might be seeing green.

I'm sure that when January 1st comes along, people will anxiously await the new 2008 polling section. I'll look for you there.

Edited December 17, 2007 by jdobbin