Is Afghanistan Simply Old Fashioned Adventurism?

[Oleg Bach]

So what's it all really about? Is it the warm and cuddly emotionalism that is pushed along by liberal dupes, That we involve our selves in this mess "so a little girl can go to school" - or "So that nasty bearded sexist Taliban don't beat woman with sticks for showing an ankle"? - Or is it really just to get Canadian troops to taste real blood and become real soldiers so that the old guys sitting in bank towers in Montreal and Toronto can feel important - and rid themselves of personal corporate inferiority....and feel more like the big boys down south who have managed to pull off a hostile take over of a company named America Inc.?

Looking last week during Rememberance day at the front page of the Toronto Sun -proudly displayed were the pitiful faces of the dead. Young men in full bloom with eyes that appeared to be more that of dear staring into the lights of an oncoming transport truck. Of all the faces..seems the immigrant population that migrated from corrupt and abusive nations did not sign up to go kill goat herders in the name of scaryism. Perhaps they have seen this foolishness in their place of origin and are not about to waste their lives eleviating the boardom of the foolish and over privledged old elite. Seems the decendants of the beef fed Christian boys from rural Ontario are only suitable for human sacrafice.

Speaking of sacrafice - what the hell was this "High Way Of Heros" non-sense remaiming the 401..in honour of the "gloryous dead" This is not world war 2 - and getting blown apart while traveling down a road is not some brave and heroic act - it can only be described as road kill. What's next - perhaps the Don Valley Park Way should be renamed "Rocky Racoons Hero Lane"?The whole thing is a mess. About three years ago I personally questioned this "mission" to Afghanistan..I had one question and one test of legitimacy. IF _ opium production decreases with Canadian envolvement - then it is a legit mission - if it increases then there is something amiss.

Perhaps it's just an adventure - a war for fun and profit - maybe Big Pharma and their illegal counter parts that sell dope .....simply do not want to pay the going price of opium..that creates the finest natural morphine - the surpasses all other synthetics in performance as a death assister and pain killer - or maybe it's just a bunch of racist fat dudes that have to much power and influence who simply want some fun - and sell a few weapons on the side as is tradtional for the more pushy important families that have gathered great wealth through corporate privateerism...any way - I usually post on an Amerian Board - I adore my Amerian friends..and they are not a dummied down nation...

But today I have decided to come home and for the first time post domestically - I hope I am welcome here and if my views are to far afield - let me make the adjustments so as I can be userful and constuctive...thanks - Oleg Bach.

[old_bold&cold]

There are many topics about Afghnaistan that your thread could easily be worked into them. Here we do not start new threads for each view on a subject, but first look to see if there are any active threads that already cover the subject. It not only makes for better flow optics, but also helps keep bandwidth costs down.

You seem new here and I will welcome you to the forums, but if a moderator sees this as I see it, they will message you and give you fair warning of the rules. Please do not think I am being anything other then helpful in letting you know this in advance of that happening.

[Topaz]

Over half of Canada would agree with you on most of your points. I've done alot of reading on this war since 9/11, websites from all the world, news site too. If one was to step back and think about this, they would see the US with the help of others, throw out the Taliban, put in a US chose leader and then run to the next country to do the same. Yes, the Taliban don't treat their people well, but what about Karzai himself? This government was going to kill one of their own who happened to be a Christian!! That was his only fault, as they saw it. The way the leaders of the Middle-Eastern countries treat their people is not like the most of the other countries in the world. So what is the west going to do, invade all those other countries too? Or just the one they need for their oil or location so they can build their military bases?? I think the reason our guys are over there and the reasons the governments wants them over, are two differenct views.

[Oleg Bach]

Over half of Canada would agree with you on most of your points. I've done alot of reading on this war since 9/11, websites from all the world, news site too. If one was to step back and think about this, they would see the US with the help of others, throw out the Taliban, put in a US chose leader and then run to the next country to do the same. Yes, the Taliban don't treat their people well, but what about Karzai himself? This government was going to kill one of their own who happened to be a Christian!! That was his only fault, as they saw it. The way the leaders of the Middle-Eastern countries treat their people is not like the most of the other countries in the world. So what is the west going to do, invade all those other countries too? Or just the one they need for their oil or location so they can build their military bases?? I think the reason our guys are over there and the reasons the governments wants them over, are two differenct views.

Yes> logic dictates that it is a sport for those that are foolish and seek a game.

[Moxie]

In times of war and not before god and soldier men adore, but in times of peace with all things righted, god is forgotten and the "SOLDIER IS SLIGHTED".

Name one heroic feat a peacenik ever accomplished? Name one heroic feat a pacifist ever accomplished. How many have been aided by military intervention visa vie war and peacekeeping? I will start with WW11, without or help Europe would be part Germany, Hitler's socialist followers would still be gasing Jews and the Islamists in the ME would be aiding the Germans in those death camps.

But hay it's easy being a brave spineless warrior from a computer chair, unlike our Military who protect and serve the peaceniks pick their noses and chain themselves to trees. L to the forhead, the secret peacenik sigh of===

[capricorn]

I've done alot of reading on this war since 9/11, websites from all the world, news site too.

Oh you have? Then why did you start a new thread about prisoners and ask the following question?

Does anyone know for sure who we turn our prisoners over to, the Afghanis or the US??

In all your readings on the subject of Afghanistan, you never came across anything about the transfer of prisoners by Canadian soldiers? Or perhaps it is that you abruptly stopped reading about the war.

Edited November 21, 2007 by capricorn

[Army Guy]

So what's it all really about? Is it the warm and cuddly emotionalism that is pushed along by liberal dupes, That we involve our selves in this mess "so a little girl can go to school" - or "So that nasty bearded sexist Taliban don't beat woman with sticks for showing an ankle"?

I think you already know the answer to that question, or you've already cemented your opinion on the entire topic. I'm hoping that your as opened minded as you say you are, and not traditionally close minded as say artists or musicians in regards to this topic.

Or is it really just to get Canadian troops to taste real blood and become real soldiers so that the old guys sitting in bank towers in Montreal and Toronto can feel important - and rid themselves of personal corporate inferiority....and feel more like the big boys down south who have managed to pull off a hostile take over of a company named America Inc.?

Alot of theories here, Canadian soldiers are real soldiers, and don't need to taste blood to confirm that. The theory of Candian bankers actaully having the balls to even think of such adventures makes me laugh, they may be alot of things but it all boils down to they are Canadians after all, not worried about thier inferiorty complex but thier bottom dollar. One that this war is not very well suited.

Looking last week during Rememberance day at the front page of the Toronto Sun -proudly displayed were the pitiful faces of the dead. Young men in full bloom with eyes that appeared to be more that of dear staring into the lights of an oncoming transport truck.

Don't make it sound like these young men were not fully aware of what they signed on for. They did after all volunteer knowing the possiable outcomes. and also knowing that it is not popular in thier own country.

Of all the faces..seems the immigrant population that migrated from corrupt and abusive nations did not sign up to go kill goat herders in the name of scaryism. Perhaps they have seen this foolishness in their place of origin and are not about to waste their lives eleviating the boardom of the foolish and over privledged old elite. Seems the decendants of the beef fed Christian boys from rural Ontario are only suitable for human sacrafice.

A picture is worth a thousand words, but i think you've gotten the wrong message from suns tribute. Perhaps you should be looking at the nominal roles of soldiers that have served in tours in Afgan and you'd be surprised that the immigrant population are signing up and serving thier new country. Or perhaps you should look at those young faces just once more just to confirm that white Christian beef eating country boys are not the only ones that believe in what our nation is doing in Afgan. That perhaps regardless of the motives of our elite, bankers, or government they are willing to risk thier lives for a greater good.

Speaking of sacrafice - what the hell was this "High Way Of Heros" non-sense remaiming the 401..in honour of the "gloryous dead" This is not world war 2 - and getting blown apart while traveling down a road is not some brave and heroic act

It may not be the War to end all wars part II , but it is War all the same, and although we have not stormed any beaches we are never the less caught in a life and death struggle fighting a foe that only lifes ambition is to kill all those not of the same ilk, or of the same mind.

And although you may not see any heroism in getting blown apart by some road side device, you should have taken that a step further and explained to your readers that these men and women do this everyday without fail, they continue to do it after linning the tarmac dozens of times to say thier final farewells to comrads that have died in the same manner as you discribe. and yet every day they climb aboard thier machines and carry out a job that needs to be done....A job made that much harder because our polictions and regular Canadians like you and me lacked the forsight to provide them with the tools to make it safer. " that cost money eh"...And while that may sound stupid to you it sounds pretty heroic to me.

About three years ago I personally questioned this "mission" to Afghanistan..I had one question and one test of legitimacy. IF _ opium production decreases with Canadian envolvement - then it is a legit mission - if it increases then there is something amiss.

Well i'm glad we did not disappiont you, you were'nt really ecpecting anyother results were you....you've manged to boil the whole mission down to one objective....drugs.... You've accomplished something that all those high priced suits have failed do to in just one post. But really do you think it would be that easy, or is it that you don't fully understand what is going on in the country.

Perhaps it's just an adventure - a war for fun and profit -

Perhaps your right perhaps all of us christian beef eating rednecks from ontario were looking for something to do.

[Oleg Bach]

I think you already know the answer to that question, or you've already cemented your opinion on the entire topic. I'm hoping that your as opened minded as you say you are, and not traditionally close minded as say artists or musicians in regards to this topic.

Alot of theories here, Canadian soldiers are real soldiers, and don't need to taste blood to confirm that. The theory of Candian bankers actaully having the balls to even think of such adventures makes me laugh, they may be alot of things but it all boils down to they are Canadians after all, not worried about thier inferiorty complex but thier bottom dollar. One that this war is not very well suited.

Don't make it sound like these young men were not fully aware of what they signed on for. They did after all volunteer knowing the possiable outcomes. and also knowing that it is not popular in thier own country.

A picture is worth a thousand words, but i think you've gotten the wrong message from suns tribute. Perhaps you should be looking at the nominal roles of soldiers that have served in tours in Afgan and you'd be surprised that the immigrant population are signing up and serving thier new country. Or perhaps you should look at those young faces just once more just to confirm that white Christian beef eating country boys are not the only ones that believe in what our nation is doing in Afgan. That perhaps regardless of the motives of our elite, bankers, or government they are willing to risk thier lives for a greater good.

It may not be the War to end all wars part II , but it is War all the same, and although we have not stormed any beaches we are never the less caught in a life and death struggle fighting a foe that only lifes ambition is to kill all those not of the same ilk, or of the same mind.

And although you may not see any heroism in getting blown apart by some road side device, you should have taken that a step further and explained to your readers that these men and women do this everyday without fail, they continue to do it after linning the tarmac dozens of times to say thier final farewells to comrads that have died in the same manner as you discribe. and yet every day they climb aboard thier machines and carry out a job that needs to be done....A job made that much harder because our polictions and regular Canadians like you and me lacked the forsight to provide them with the tools to make it safer. " that cost money eh"...And while that may sound stupid to you it sounds pretty heroic to me.

Well i'm glad we did not disappiont you, you were'nt really ecpecting anyother results were you....you've manged to boil the whole mission down to one objective....drugs.... You've accomplished something that all those high priced suits have failed do to in just one post. But really do you think it would be that easy, or is it that you don't fully understand what is going on in the country.

Perhaps your right perhaps all of us christian beef eating rednecks from ontario were looking for something to do.

No one can really explain to me clearly the purpose of the mission into Afghanistan..? Empire after empire have entered into the region and all leave with nothing to show for it. Russian mothers still curse the government for robbing them of their sons for no good reason. To say these poor soldiers who you say are "aware" are serving the nation is a bizarre statement. I as a citizen do not feel served. Who is being served here and who is being protected? This is adventurism and don't say there is not an elite in this country who are without purpose who get a charge out of war fare...we do have old guys who have influence and a set of antique tin soldiers along with books on Napoleon in their library....of course government is influenced by un-elected persons of great privledge and wealth who are adventurists and do not respect the death of some white trash duped kid from Owen Sound...no disrespect intended in the term "white trash".

You also mention that immigrants are enlisting - or to that effect - show me one face of a dead immigrant on the front page of the Toronto Sun? There are none - so what are you talking about. They do not want any part of a war that is not defensive...this is an offensive action and not a premptive strike against "terrorism" - it's and adventure for jerks.

[M.Dancer]

Does Oleg know that Army guy is an Afgan vet?

[Oleg Bach]

Does Oleg know that Army guy is an Afgan vet?

No I did not and I hold the utmost respect for the military. On the other site I dealt for a year with a young former intelligence officer gravely wounded in the early days in Iraq....I heard a few tales that would make your hair curl..there is little that is on the up and up regarding dealing with the middle east..Afghanistan may be somewhat different from the situation in Iraq- but in all probablity the mentality is one borrowed and spawed in the United States. Maybe I am wrong and the mission in Afhanistan is untainted and noble - I hope so.

[Topaz]

Oh you have? Then why did you start a new thread about prisoners and ask the following question?

Does anyone know for sure who we turn our prisoners over to, the Afghanis or the US??

In all your readings on the subject of Afghanistan, you never came across anything about the transfer of prisoners by Canadian soldiers? Or perhaps it is that you abruptly stopped reading about the war.

The answer to your question is no, I didn't come across anything about Canada and prisoners! Has anyone here been able to find anything on web about Canada. I'n NOT blaming the soldiers, they are only doing their duty, the blame would be with the higher ups, IF this is happening!! What I DID find had to do with the US and their prisons, ran by the CIA at Bagram, a former Soviet aircraft shop, in Charikan, in Paruan. Where 27 officers and enlisted personnel were found guilty by the US a couple of years ago before the prison scam in Iraq came out. They tortured their prisons and some shouldn't have been there. So now we know US has and Afghans are very well torturing! Harper gov't keeps saying well we talk to the government over there not to if they are,..... the government is corrupt and if Harper can't fix the problem then he risks being in violation of International and Canadian law. Latest report is saying NATO is losing the battle, and needs 80,000 more troops, probably that the guys in Iraq are now moving into Afghanistan to make their last stand.

[Army Guy]

No one can really explain to me clearly the purpose of the mission into Afghanistan..?

And yet you've taken upon yourself without this clear and concise reasoning to cement your own opinon. When this has been explained thousands of times. It's not that you don't know why Afganistan, but rather you don't agree with it. Which is fine everyone is entitled to thier own opinions, but here you are clearly throwing dirt on those that do not share your vision.

Empire after empire have entered into the region and all leave with nothing to show for it. Russian mothers still curse the government for robbing them of their sons for no good reason.

Yes the Afgan people have defeated or rather outlived thier opponets will to concour thier nation. But i don't recall them asking the British or Russians for thier assistance do you...Both of these nations had other plans for Afgan i'm sure they did not include building a nation for Afgan's.

To say these poor soldiers who you say are "aware" are serving the nation is a bizarre statement. I as a citizen do not feel served. Who is being served here and who is being protected

?

Why is it a bizarre statement, because you find it hard to believe that these young soldiers have a different value system than you, or that they actually believe in what they are doing....

You are being served, every Canadian is being served, this mission was approved by our government and at the time the Majority of Canadians...want someone to piont the finger at , then blame them ...soldiers don't get to chose where and whom they shall fight....

The Nation of Afgan has asked for our assistance, no more no less...and we are providing that...and guess what there is no profit in it for Canada no, oil contracts, no opuim deals, no adding another province...just our nation aiding another, trying to give alittle of what we take for granted everyday to another people have a planet away...

This is adventurism and don't say there is not an elite in this country who are without purpose who get a charge out of war fare...

Yes they may speak of it at tea parties, or at the opra, but like i've said before they don't have the balls to take that action...

Perhaps you can give us one example in the last 30 years of our countries elite plotting and dabling in anything resembling warfare....So if it is adventurism then it's a new thing....

we do have old guys who have influence and a set of antique tin soldiers along with books on Napoleon in their library....of course government is influenced by un-elected persons of great privledge and wealth who are adventurists and do not respect the death of some white trash duped kid from Owen Sound...no disrespect intended in the term "white trash".

Just how much influence would they have and why would they even bother with our military, shit most third world nations have more of a military force than ours, and they have more than tin soldiers to play with...As for respect, i'd say about as much as you've shown in the last few posts.

You also mention that immigrants are enlisting - or to that effect - show me one face of a dead immigrant on the front page of the Toronto Sun?

Sorry never seen the sun, i was assuming they were showing a picture of all our dead for the begining of the mission.

But take a look at this site and tell me there are no imigrants in thier.

Our fallen

Lets not forget about Cpl Anthony Graham born in Jamica, took part in the olympics in Barcelona... died while serving his country. srcoll down the list of names and guess which ones are or came from immigrant families...

They do not want any part of a war that is not defensive...this is an offensive action and not a premptive strike against "terrorism" - it's and adventure for jerks.

Yes we as Canadians have not taken part in any offensive actions....well there was that thing when we burned the white house....but we could blame the british on that....Why because we as Canadians can't stand anything to do with Offensive actions....we sit in our perfect little worlds and critize those that would even dare bring up the topic....For we are Canadians and we like pionting... it's what we are good at....did i mention bashing americans another hobby of ours ...

And yet as the peacekeeping myth has been busted, so must this myth that we as Canadians are not just finger pionters but we are capable of taking action or providing assistance when we are asked.

You can call it what ever you like, adventurism, doing what is right.... but as a soldier that has completed 2 tours in Afgan i request that you refrain from insulting any of my comrads, dead or alive....

[Oleg Bach]

And yet you've taken upon yourself without this clear and concise reasoning to cement your own opinon. When this has been explained thousands of times. It's not that you don't know why Afganistan, but rather you don't agree with it. Which is fine everyone is entitled to thier own opinions, but here you are clearly throwing dirt on those that do not share your vision.

Yes the Afgan people have defeated or rather outlived thier opponets will to concour thier nation. But i don't recall them asking the British or Russians for thier assistance do you...Both of these nations had other plans for Afgan i'm sure they did not include building a nation for Afgan's.

?

Why is it a bizarre statement, because you find it hard to believe that these young soldiers have a different value system than you, or that they actually believe in what they are doing....

You are being served, every Canadian is being served, this mission was approved by our government and at the time the Majority of Canadians...want someone to piont the finger at , then blame them ...soldiers don't get to chose where and whom they shall fight....

The Nation of Afgan has asked for our assistance, no more no less...and we are providing that...and guess what there is no profit in it for Canada no, oil contracts, no opuim deals, no adding another province...just our nation aiding another, trying to give alittle of what we take for granted everyday to another people have a planet away...

Yes they may speak of it at tea parties, or at the opra, but like i've said before they don't have the balls to take that action...

Perhaps you can give us one example in the last 30 years of our countries elite plotting and dabling in anything resembling warfare....So if it is adventurism then it's a new thing....

Just how much influence would they have and why would they even bother with our military, shit most third world nations have more of a military force than ours, and they have more than tin soldiers to play with...As for respect, i'd say about as much as you've shown in the last few posts.

Sorry never seen the sun, i was assuming they were showing a picture of all our dead for the begining of the mission.

But take a look at this site and tell me there are no imigrants in thier.

Our fallen

Lets not forget about Cpl Anthony Graham born in Jamica, took part in the olympics in Barcelona... died while serving his country. srcoll down the list of names and guess which ones are or came from immigrant families...

Yes we as Canadians have not taken part in any offensive actions....well there was that thing when we burned the white house....but we could blame the british on that....Why because we as Canadians can't stand anything to do with Offensive actions....we sit in our perfect little worlds and critize those that would even dare bring up the topic....For we are Canadians and we like pionting... it's what we are good at....did i mention bashing americans another hobby of ours ...

And yet as the peacekeeping myth has been busted, so must this myth that we as Canadians are not just finger pionters but we are capable of taking action or providing assistance when we are asked.

You can call it what ever you like, adventurism, doing what is right.... but as a soldier that has completed 2 tours in Afgan i request that you refrain from insulting any of my comrads, dead or alive....

Thanks for the education - I just hope you and yours have this under control. Frankly you still have faith in the system - I did a five year tour of duty that ranged from the lowest court in the land to the highest..I'm just a bumkin..but it was a bloodless war that wore me out and I am cynical towards the honesty presented by the system..just very disappointed in what I saw and heard and learned. As for your comrads that are dead I send deep sympathy to their families verging on tears. For those that are alive and serve or have served - I send respect and support..for your civilian commander in chief....I am suspect - sorry...can't help it. I saw liars and cowards in high postions and that sight was disturbing...carry on my friend and do your best - for I have done mine.

[Army Guy]

Thanks for the education

Oleg, it's was never my intention to convert you, OK maybe educate you alittle....the one thing i cherish about our country is we can all have different opinions and still live together without tearing out each others throats... One can not debate a topic if we are all of the same mind and opinion...

I just hope you and yours have this under control

.

I would'nt go that far, for war is full of murphies law, and murphy makes it quite clear there is never control when you need it or want it.. But i will go on record as saying it is a very different war from Iraq.

As for your comrads that are dead I send deep sympathy to their families verging on tears. For those that are alive and serve or have served - I send respect and support..for your civilian commander in chief....I am suspect - sorry...can't help it. I saw liars and cowards in high postions and that sight was disturbing.

Thank you. As for the our government officials , i don't think your alone in that assetment, nor would i waste a breath in thier defense. with exception of one, Mr Glyn Berry foreign affairs officer, killed doing his duty in a combat zone.

Oleg your opinions are yours, it was not my intention to change them, but rather educate those that have been swayed by false facts. you have any questions don't hesitate to ask.

[Oleg Bach]

Oleg, it's was never my intention to convert you, OK maybe educate you alittle....the one thing i cherish about our country is we can all have different opinions and still live together without tearing out each others throats... One can not debate a topic if we are all of the same mind and opinion...

.

I would'nt go that far, for war is full of murphies law, and murphy makes it quite clear there is never control when you need it or want it.. But i will go on record as saying it is a very different war from Iraq.

Thank you. As for the our government officials , i don't think your alone in that assetment, nor would i waste a breath in thier defense. with exception of one, Mr Glyn Berry foreign affairs officer, killed doing his duty in a combat zone.

Oleg your opinions are yours, it was not my intention to change them, but rather educate those that have been swayed by false facts. you have any questions don't hesitate to ask.

I am so grateful to you for the love you send - yes you are loving and a man of peace I see..I have always believed that a man must be capable of waging war in order to be a peace keeper and maker. Duty is a rare thing these days as is the honoured principle of service. Looks like you just made a friend and now your stuck with me bud...will do my best not to be reactionary and will read more and speak less...seems you have some friends here that are very proud and respectful of you - good work.. we all earn our keep in our own way. Opinions are theory...I really do not have opinions...just speculations in search of the facts...cheers my friend.

[jennie]

You are being served, every Canadian is being served, this mission was approved by our government and at the time the Majority of Canadians...want someone to piont the finger at , then blame them ...soldiers don't get to chose where and whom they shall fight....

Exactly.

Army Guy, when we debate about whether the war is accomplishing what it should, it IS the government's judgment we are questioning, not the soldiers. In fact, it is our responsibility as citizens to constantly question whether we have made the right decisions putting soldiers in harm's way.

[Army Guy]

Thank you again. There are many vets on this board, more than i've seen in most, and we hold a deep respect for each other.

[Army Guy]

Jennie:

Army Guy, when we debate about whether the war is accomplishing what it should, it IS the government's judgment we are questioning, not the soldiers. In fact, it is our responsibility as citizens to constantly question whether we have made the right decisions putting soldiers in harm's way.

Would it not be fair to say that both are fairly inter twined, after all it is our soldiers that are the tools that our government is using to accomplish it's aims on this mission. And when one claims that the aims are not being met one assumes that the tool is faulty or not doing the job correctly.

Which as a soldier i take that to heart, one because i am or have been involved in that process...two i've invested alot of blood sweat and tears into this mission, so i'm attached to it.

I don't think i've begudge the citizens right to question if the right decisions are being made. But you'd have to admit the real time for debate was at the start of the mission, before our nation committed it's troops to combat. What message are you sending your very own troops when there is constant debate over the same topic over and over again....it that signs of good leadership...Not from where i'm standing...as a soldier leadership means everything...being indecisive is not good leadership.

Try putting yourself in a young soldiers boots for a second, His government decides to ship him overseas to a unknown combat zone, not only has his government approved but at the time so has the majority of Canadians....he spends the next 6 months leaping from operation to operation, doing what he has been sent thier to do....only to find out on the way home that Canadians have changed thier minds...they don't want to be there...It's to late...the troops are on the ground, many have paid the price already...and many more will continue to die until our government pulls them back or the tax payer makes it a priority of thier own...

Yes many have died because this mission was what Canadians and our government wanted...there is no going back...today a majority of Canadians do not approve of the mission, and no disrespect intended, but the soldiers don't give a rats ass...It is thier mission now, and they will fight to stay or until it is completed. Not because they love combat or the rush that comes with it, but because they have a mission that they can see results in that they have taken to this mission to heart....unlike the many before it.

So when you claim it is your responsabilty as a citizen to look after our soldiers best interest , in the soldiers eyes you have failed and failed miserably. Yes we all know you support us, wear the red shirts on fridays , and welcome us home like hero's. But you have failed to be heard by your government, in all matters...and making this pill even harder to swallow is the fact that some university professor, and some peace group from BC, which are fewer in numbers can cause such a media stir that they are not only heard by our government but is forcing them to take action...

[Topaz]

This question is especially to armyguy, but anyone feel free to give your opinion. Should Canada go to war for reasons that are questionable? Why I'm asking this is first , armyguy, is supposedly in the military or was. I question the the Bush's reasons for going into and recently I read an article that was printed back shortly after 9/11, that said the US was friendly towards the Taiban and had the CIA in the country with their activities. They wanted the Taliban to help the US oil companies build a pipeline across southwest Asia. The Taliban said no and the US was really peeved and reports in France and England journalist wrote that the US had already made plans to go into Afghanistan and take what they wanted. When they were warned of impending attack on the US, they just let it happen and in some instances, help out. Now I realize that no one would believe that someone with their country would do this, and that is what they were counting on. The US thought, we'll take out Afghanistan fast and they did, maybe too fast, and then go into Iraq and take that country but they didn't have a well plan as we know today about how long is was going to take. So I see this war Canada is in, as a takeover of the US. Yes, Canadians are there to help the people, no Canadian would ever blame the soldiers for what they are asked to do, but I think we made a mistake staying more than a year. We could've always come back after this war became clearer and the government isn't so corrupt over there.

[Oleg Bach]

Always thought regarding the debate over go or don't to Afghanistan seemed very rapid...it felt to quick and from what I remember was not a debate that brought about the best knowledge or did it generate a bit of wisdom on how to proceed. Seems to me the debate consisted of pleasing or displeasing our little American brother to the south. It was more a debate on embrassing American policy or not - then if it was going to be good or useful to Canada..

- if it was truely neccesary or not..and I believe that General Hillard was a bit to excieted to be part of something real and dangerous rather than the usual peace keeping mission. A soldiers ultimate purpose is to wage war...the head in the Canadian military seemed to want the excietment. So maybe it was not adventurism needed by civilian authorities but perhaps the military wanted some action.

It could be as plain as that and that may have to be considered belatedly - But there are parallels now that are moral issues regarding Afghanistan and Iraq - the moral obligation now remains to repair and assist and fix what was broken through the early bad decisions. The civilian population can not be abandoned - that's the conclution I came too a long while ago - put the mistakes aside and forget about blame - There will be mass murder in both of these nations if there is a pull out..so now it is a humanitarian effort - like it or not.

What has always irked me regarding this war is that most of the deaths occur though ambush..this is always the case when you are not defending your own turf but on the truf of others..so if I seemed to insult the dead by refereing to them as road kill please excuse me. Measures have to be taken that what ever troops are operating on the move should have the finest and strongest equipment ......and where the hell are the high quality expolsives coming from that are used by the other guys to blow up our guys? These are not primative black powder pipe bombs.

Seems I remember there was a massive amount of high explosive stored in Iraq that was made in America...tons of the stuff went missing...I surmise that the westerner are being blown up with western materials..There must be some vehcile strong enough to withstand these road side blasts..if there is such a vehicle - then the troops must have them immediately to get the job done and get the hell out of there - same goes for the Americans, once the warlords are put in their place..through force or negotiation including bribery if need be.

[noahbody]

The Taliban said no and the US was really peeved and reports in France and England journalist wrote that the US had already made plans to go into Afghanistan and take what they wanted. When they were warned of impending attack on the US, they just let it happen and in some instances, help out.

So to fill in the gaps in this story, after the Taliban refuses the pipeline and the States are visibly upset, the conversation goes something like:

"You know what would piss them off even more, if we flew airplanes into those twin towers."

"We should do that. Really."

"Do you think they'll attack us?"

"Of course. They'll likely kill us."

"Oh my Allah, that would be funny!"

[M.Dancer]

So to fill in the gaps in this story, after the Taliban refuses the pipeline and the States are visibly upset, the conversation goes something like:

"You know what would piss them off even more, if we flew airplanes into those twin towers."

"We should do that. Really."

"Do you think they'll attack us?"

"Of course. They'll likely kill us."

"Oh my Allah, that would be funny!"

From the bottom of my funny bone, thank you.

[Army Guy]

This question is especially to armyguy, but anyone feel free to give your opinion. Should Canada go to war for reasons that are questionable?

Every operation that Canada decides to take to sends it's troops must be well thought out. it's gains must out wiegh the costs....Every operation does and will end with dead soldiers going home. There are very few exceptions to this rule.

Every War has reasons that are questionable, if you look hard enough you could find them for every conflict we've been involved with. The media and government has painted most Wars as some romantic adventure that turns young boys into men, having a good War or a bad war is simply a myth...War is none of the above, it grinds and destroys everything it touchs into dust.

The US thought, we'll take out Afghanistan fast and they did, maybe too fast, and then go into Iraq and take that country but they didn't have a well plan as we know today about how long is was going to take. So I see this war Canada is in, as a takeover of the US.

Lets just say for a second your right, it's all about a oil pipe line...one that could not even begin construction until the taliban are completely destroyed...it represents a huge target and would require thousands of troops just to guard...a multi billion dollar adventure, not just a few bil, but hundrds of billions (already spent) in this war already...

So my question to you is this what profit do you think the owner of this pipe line is going to make...to make this a feesiable option... not only that is this investment could be destroyed or severily damaged by one explosive device...alot of money to ride on a piece of pipe.

but I think we made a mistake staying more than a year. We could've always come back after this war became clearer and the government isn't so corrupt over there.

That is not how an Alliance works.

[Oleg Bach]

Every operation that Canada decides to take to sends it's troops must be well thought out. it's gains must out wiegh the costs....Every operation does and will end with dead soldiers going home. There are very few exceptions to this rule.

Every War has reasons that are questionable, if you look hard enough you could find them for every conflict we've been involved with. The media and government has painted most Wars as some romantic adventure that turns young boys into men, having a good War or a bad war is simply a myth...War is none of the above, it grinds and destroys everything it touchs into dust.

Lets just say for a second your right, it's all about a oil pipe line...one that could not even begin construction until the taliban are completely destroyed...it represents a huge target and would require thousands of troops just to guard...a multi billion dollar adventure, not just a few bil, but hundrds of billions (already spent) in this war already...

So my question to you is this what profit do you think the owner of this pipe line is going to make...to make this a feesiable option... not only that is this investment could be destroyed or severily damaged by one explosive device...alot of money to ride on a piece of pipe.

That is not how an Alliance works.

Call me simple but I always defined war in my mind as a line draw in the sand, where two sides square off and conflict for supremacy. Where there has been an actual attempt or simply via consistant threat for one group to destroy or rob or both the other. It's beyond me to understand the idea of having to travel thousands of miles to get to an "enemy" and engage that enemy. I could understand if you were at war with a neighbour who was close and could strike out at will. I can not understand the Afghanistan engagement. Does the average Taliban fighter know where Canada is? Can one of these bearded rock scrambling primative warriors point out Toronto on a map? Not likely!

Yes we can parrot all the 9 11 catch phrases and attempt to justify chasing the bad guys about seeking justice and revenge and making sure they do not attack again...if they ever did to begin with. If this is in part creeping Islam conflicting with western values I could see it. If America was as it likes to state a Christian nation - A true Christian nation would have seal the boarders after 9 11 and stated to the world that they forgive the attackers - and stated to the world if you strike us again our intelligence people will figure out EXACTLY who is reponsible and we will nuke you.

But know - they went tearing out after ghosts not knowing who they were attacking - the problem has always been intellignence and the lack of it for the Americans. Because if the incrimental privatization of the CIA - that in a sence is no longer a not for profit orgainization is an utter failure. Reason being is that they have betrayed and lied to almost all of their sources of information. In other words an intelligence orgainzation must have friends..informants - the CIA became dependant on paying for information and worse - simply burned all their bridges so to speak. So in effect the inept retribution for 9 11 was due to betrayal and an arrogant corporate attitude that beleived that the CIA was their private club...

So getting back to Afghanistan - and our Amerian counter parts in Iraq. It must be made clear this is the first fully corporate war waged by buisnessmen. Most of the advisors that were in the know in the military and most generals were fired in the early stages because oil merchants thought they as ameteurs could do the job. Funding was restricted early by congress and the oil guys who as most rich people are - are cheap - they wanted something for nothing and they still do..Chaney simply ran out of public money.

So the only reason we are in Afghanistan is to please the oil merchants in America - and our buisness elite instisted that the bond between the money boys state side is not broken north of the boarder...so as big buisness always has it's way with poiticans seeing they have all the money - off we went to Afghanistan to please that delluded corporate Richard Chaney - there is no other reason and you poor folks can rationalize all you want - Its about money and the continued hording of wealth by a few...war has always been for fun and profit - never for ideology...show me the ideals or show me the money - I will take the money just as will 99% of human beings.

[Army Guy]

- if it was truely neccesary or not..and I believe that General Hillard was a bit to excieted to be part of something real and dangerous rather than the usual peace keeping mission. A soldiers ultimate purpose is to wage war...the head in the Canadian military seemed to want the excietment. So maybe it was not adventurism needed by civilian authorities but perhaps the military wanted some action.

To be honest, there was some excitment within the military about getting involved in Iraq, taking on a larger role than we played in Gulf war I, it is after all what the military trains for, every soldier wants to test thier training to prove thier abilities...i should also piont out that these are soldiers that have not seen combat or the effects of war for the best part of thier carears, I don't think that same attitude is present today. With most troops having done atleast 2 rotations in Afgan.

It should also be mentioned that Gen Hillier was not in charge of the military at the time, in fact he himself served in Afgan as the comander of Canadian forces troops there.

I think the decision to go into Afgan was chosen as the lesser of to evils, we had to live up to our part of the NATO alliance and this was Canada's choice.

The Military actually tried to persaude our government that our military forces could not do both assigned missions, That we were not suited nor equiped for the Afgan mission. We were still heavily involved with Bosina. The liberals decided to bring Canada's commitment in Bosina to a close and to Launch a new miision into Afgan, to appease our neibours and fulfill our commitments to the Alliance.

What has always irked me regarding this war is that most of the deaths occur though ambush..this is always the case when you are not defending your own turf but on the truf of others..so if I seemed to insult the dead by refereing to them as road kill please excuse me.

This is because the enemy has adopted thier tactics so the produce the best results, No longer capable of conducting large one on one operations, for the most part have shifted thier tactics to fight NATO on the Home front, the death of a single Nato soldier has a much larger impact on the people , change thier minds and they will pull out....and poof a victory can be declared. They are winning on this front...despite lossing on the battle field.

As for where are they getting all the explosives, Afgan is littered with them, the russians had left mountains and mountains of them scatter across the country.. add to this involvment by other Muslim countries providing the elctronic means and you have the makings of an IED...which can be as small as a cigar to as large as serval tonnes.

As for getting a mine proof veh there is none, the bigger the veh the bigger the explosive devise. detection is the key, for better detection we need more troops...something that nobody is ready for in the near future.

Getting of the roads is proably the best answer, getting big honkin helos will save dozens of lives, but they cost money something the tax payers don't want to spend.