The Six Nations and Crime in Ontario

[guyser]

Good point. I actually just thought it odd that you had something about gay ministers. I misunderstood the point you were making, thanks for clarifying that for me.

Nothing like shooting myself in the foot huh? Lesbian ministers? Should have saved that for bedtime.

I think actually that he did that to show just how terrible they all are. Sort of like when he says all military people are bad and evil state sanctioned murderers. That kind of crap generalization.

You got that right. It seems we have all come to know the MO of our resident holier than thou proselytizer.

Do as I say, not as I do.

[kengs333]

Boy, you heathens just don't get it, do you?

[guyser]

Boy, you heathens just don't get it, do you?

Oh we certainly get it alright, we even take pictures sometimes.

Its why we aren't frustrated.

[kengs333]

Oh we certainly get it alright, we even take pictures sometimes.

Its why we aren't frustrated.

oh brother, no, you just do not get it...

[Rue]

Oleg you stated;

"Pedophilia - does generate homosexual ideation in the young after being molested. "

Oleg it doesn't that is a misconception. I have enclosed some articles for you to back up what I am going to say if you are interested.

When a child is traumatized by an adult, many complex reactions and developments can occur but no they do not suddenly become gay or turn gay as a result of the trauma. That is like saying a boy molested by an older women when he is 12 will become hetero-sexual if he was otherwise going to be gay.

To make a long story short, our sexual identity is based on many complex factors starting with out genetic predisposition and literally the structure of our brains and our chromosone, hormonal and other chemical make-up.

People don't become gay or straight because its forced on them. Think about that. Boys who are raped in jails when they get out of jail do not become gay. In fact they may confuse violence as an expression of sexual affection but they don't think all sex must be gay.

I have worked over twenty years with many children victims. They go through some very tell tale reactions and developments and if their trauma and the experiences from it are not talked out yes they can be stored and lead to all kinds of problems but gender identify formation problem is not one of them. In fact same sex rape may cause gender identity problems with transgender people but not others. Women don't become lesbians because they are raped. Men don't become gay because they are raped. That is a myth.

In fact what is most likely to happen when a child is sexually abused is they develop a disassociative personality disoder, severe depression, become physically abusive to themselves, develp anorexia, drug and alcohol addiction, suicidal ideation, anger management problems, many things but what you say.

One's sexual identity is not based on someone raping you. No identity is. You are confusing traumatic reaction to identity formation and they are not the same. It may seem that way to you because someone may say to you I was raped by a man so I will never trust men again but think about that Oleg. The stereotype with a lesbian raped by a man is that she will never trust a man again once she's been raped by a man and that is why she is gay. But if that is the case, why would you then think a man raped by a man would be gay? Would they not also just like the lesbian not be expected to trust men?

Well that women did not become a lesbian because the man raped her any more then a boy in later life decides he's gay and may have been molested as a child.

Sexual molestation is about power abuse and boundaries not preference. It can't force the mind to create preference but it can force the mind to represss feelings.

Chances are a young man who is raped like a young women who is raped has problems with any trust figure or anyone touching them they don't suddenly say oh I was raped by a man so I love it and want more of it. That is absurd.

Each human when abused is different as to how they react and cope and what effects it has on their psyche. The only thing that humans have the same when they are abused is the fact that they feel betrayed, blame themselves, and the violation makes them feel self-loathing. Other then that, no Oleg it doesn't work that way and we take each victim as we find them and all we do to help them heal is help them work through the pain, the physical and mental effects and how it lingers in many other kinds of behaviour and relationships-we simply help them work to a point where they feel good about themselves-their sexual identity was always there and it simply re-emerges when they feel healthy again-and if they are gay or straight or bi, that is what comes back when they re-emerge.

Now with pedophilia which is a sexual disorder unlike homo-hetero or bi-sexuality, like any sexual disorder it may be influenced by trauma.

What I find ironic is this came up in a post about aboriginals. In the aboriginal world, they are light years ahead of us and the notion of double spirits in people's psyches. In fact their holistic practices in regards to the psyche and healing trauma are now being incorporated by Western medicine.

Whether we ever catch up with them is another story.

resources/The%20Traumatic%20Impact%20of%20Child%20Sexual%20Abuse.pdf

http://www.csom.org/train/victim/resources...ual%20Abuse.pdf

http://www.fsu.edu/~trauma/v9/TerrorSuidic...rauma_blind.pdf

http://www.forge-forward.org/newsletters/v...xualtrauma.html

http://www.recovery-man.com/trauma.htm

http://www.fsu.edu/~trauma/v7/Taxonomy.pdf

http://www.estss.org/ewots05/ew05_files/hellem01.pdf

http://www.crimevictimservices.org/sexassault/index.php

Edited January 23, 2008 by Rue

[Rue]

Oh we certainly get it alright, we even take pictures sometimes.

Its why we aren't frustrated.

Guyser I genuinely believe that as long as people can throw about words like "heathen" without insight to its reprecussions and understanding it is sad but I will not let that influence my responses. To me it is nothing but a racial taunt to be condemned and if need be challenged by us all and there is much work to be done, not with the individual who engages in the taunt but others who might believe it is a legitimate thing to say.

You have nothing to defend.

I commend those posters who stick to the issues and refrain from such comments.

You have nothing but respect from me as does Jenny and as do those posters that disagree with you but have stuck to the issues.

Edited January 23, 2008 by Rue

[AngusThermopyle]

It's no big deal Rue. I imagine I'm categorized as a Heathen as well, it doesn't really bother me. I enjoy my life greatly, do nothing to harm others, try my best to help others and am thoroughly content. So if thats what being a heathen entails then I'll wear that badge any day.

Besides being called a heathen isn't as bad as being called a bad evil state sanctioned murderer, at least I don't think it is. Not in my book. Let Kengs have his fun, it's not like any one takes anything he has to say seriously anyway.

[kengs333]

Let Kengs have his fun, it's not like any one takes anything he has to say seriously anyway.

Least of all you, I suppose? Yet you continue to post indirect ad homs about me. I don't know, soldier boy, seem to me that my opinions resonate more than you're letting on.

[joan]

QUOTE(kengs333 @ Jan 23 2008, 08:37 AM) *

Boy, you heathens just don't get it, do you?

Oh we certainly get it alright, we even take pictures sometimes.

Its why we aren't frustrated.

you are very funny

[Rue]

It's no big deal Rue. I imagine I'm categorized as a Heathen as well, it doesn't really bother me. I enjoy my life greatly, do nothing to harm others, try my best to help others and am thoroughly content. So if thats what being a heathen entails then I'll wear that badge any day.

Besides being called a heathen isn't as bad as being called a bad evil state sanctioned murderer, at least I don't think it is. Not in my book. Let Kengs have his fun, it's not like any one takes anything he has to say seriously anyway.

Thank you for the comment AT. Its ironic AT but one of the most potent images I will always have is that day when the pimply faced soldier stood with the warrior in his face, one emoting the other doing what a soldier does....something that we would never see in the vast majority of countries in this world-restraint.

Evil sanctioned murder, lol, no, Canadian soldier.

[AngusThermopyle]

Its ironic AT but one of the most potent images I will always have is that day when the pimply faced soldier stood with the warrior in his face, one emoting the other doing what a soldier does

Yeah, I'll never forget that image either. It was actually three "warriors" and the kid. He was a green private at that time, just out of his battle school course, the first one. He didn't flinch or waver, I was so proud of him, as was everyone in the Forces. He enjoyed a meteoric rise through the ranks until he hit Sargent. After that I heard he was busted down again for Cocaine use. Too bad, he had the makings of a first class soldier.

Ironically the Mohawk Warriors use that picture as a symbol of their warrior fitness. All it shows me is that three of them were stood down and outclassed by one young guy who was still green. In fact Dudley George had a copy of that picture on the wall of his house. As they say, the Devil is in the details.

[Rue]

Yeah, I'll never forget that image either. It was actually three "warriors" and the kid. He was a green private at that time, just out of his battle school course, the first one. He didn't flinch or waver, I was so proud of him, as was everyone in the Forces. He enjoyed a meteoric rise through the ranks until he hit Sargent. After that I heard he was busted down again for Cocaine use. Too bad, he had the makings of a first class soldier.

Ironically the Mohawk Warriors use that picture as a symbol of their warrior fitness. All it shows me is that three of them were stood down and outclassed by one young guy who was still green. In fact Dudley George had a copy of that picture on the wall of his house. As they say, the Devil is in the details.

AT one day I hope you do get to meet some Warriors and are able to talk with them about that incident. Its not the kid they were talking down but what he symbolized. The actual kid and the honour he showed they respect-for them the kid is a symbol of the federal government hiding behind the kid. That emoting is seen as pride and saying enough is enough to the government. They know the kid was just a symbol. Their emoting was a message to the federal government they were cowards for sending soldiers.

It has nothing to do with that soldier and everything to do with the government's inaction and hiding behind the armed forces rather than deal with the issue.

To them its a matter of using the military as a cover for their lack of honour by trying to hide behind the honour of the military.

The Armed Forces was not there issue-the federal government was and remains.

If what you stand for and what made you join the armed forces is the same honour code the federal government and our politicians honoured, we would not have this problem AT.

People like you when you shake someone's hand mean it. Your word is who you are. The legacy of our politicians not standing by their word is what has caused this mess and its the exact same honour code you live(d) your life by that will have to be incorporated by our politicians if this is to resolve itself-and I say it will precisely because people like you do exist and will make sure it happens.

In the short term some pathetic racists will try use the event to taunt and incite, some hot-head outside agitators will try exploit the situation and some innocent people on both sides will be f..cked....but it will resolve itself because both sides are honourable good people.

I did not know that story about the kid AT. Damn.

Edited January 25, 2008 by Rue

[joan]

AT one day I hope you do get to meet some Warriors and are able to talk with them about that incident. Its not the kid they were talking down but what he symbolized. The actual kid and the honour he showed they respect-for them the kid is a symbol of the federal government hiding behind the kid. That emoting is seen as pride and saying enough is enough to the government. They know the kid was just a symbol. Their emoting was a message to the federal government they were cowards for sending soldiers.

It has nothing to do with that soldier and everything to do with the government's inaction and hiding behind the armed forces rather than deal with the issue.

To them its a matter of using the military as a cover for their lack of honour by trying to hide behind the honour of the military.

The Armed Forces was not there issue-the federal government was and remains.

If what you stand for and what made you join the armed forces is the same honour code the federal government and our politicians honoured, we would not have this problem AT.

People like you when you shake someone's hand mean it. Your word is who you are. The legacy of our politicians not standing by their word is what has caused this mess and its the exact same honour code you live(d) your life by that will have to be incorporated by our politicians if this is to resolve itself-and I say it will precisely because people like you do exist and will make sure it happens.

In the short term some pathetic racists will try use the event to taunt and incite, some hot-head outside agitators will try exploit the situation and some innocent people on both sides will be f..cked....but it will resolve itself because both sides are honourable good people.

I did not know that story about the kid AT. Damn.

Wet blanket time:

At that time (OKA) two Canadian soldiers threw 2 fourteen year old girls from Kahnewake off the Mercier bridge. One narrowly avoided getting sucked into the propellor of a passing freighter, had a smashed pelvis and cannot have children. That is what I think of when I see that photo: How two young Canadian soldiers saw two angry 14 year old girls as enemies that should be disposed of.

[kengs333]

Wet blanket time:

At that time (OKA) two Canadian soldiers threw 2 fourteen year old girls from Kahnewake off the Mercier bridge. One narrowly avoided getting sucked into the propellor of a passing freighter, had a smashed pelvis and cannot have children. That is what I think of when I see that photo: How two young Canadian soldiers saw two angry 14 year old girls as enemies that should be disposed of.

I seem to recall somebody else making the assertion as well. Now, who was that again...?

[AngusThermopyle]

Actually the first time she told this story I believe it was one fourteen year old girl and there was no mention of ships and props. This is a prime example of why I don't buy any of the propaganda from these people. As I've said before the story changes continuously to suit the flavour of the day.

I'm curious though. How does a fourteen year old with a smashed pelvis manage to swim hard enough to avoid the vortex effect from the props? I've seen Zodiacs with 50 horse outboards get too close and it was everything the motor could do to break the suction effect. Was this girl related to Superman in some way. Must have been since with a smashed pelvis she wouldn't be using her legs to swim.

[joan]

Actually the first time she told this story I believe it was one fourteen year old girl and there was no mention of ships and props. This is a prime example of why I don't buy any of the propaganda from these people. As I've said before the story changes continuously to suit the flavour of the day.

I'm curious though. How does a fourteen year old with a smashed pelvis manage to swim hard enough to avoid the vortex effect from the props? I've seen Zodiacs with 50 horse outboards get too close and it was everything the motor could do to break the suction effect. Was this girl related to Superman in some way. Must have been since with a smashed pelvis she wouldn't be using her legs to swim.

The name of the film escapes me, but I believe she managed to hold onto the bridge support.

Excuse me then for telling you things you already knew. Who woulda thought!

Edited January 26, 2008 by joan

[charter.rights]

The name of the film escapes me, but I believe she managed to hold onto the bridge support.

Excuse me then for telling you things you already knew. Who woulda thought!

"Rocks at Whiskey Trench".

I would concur that the Army showed their true cowardly misfit colours on that day. Watch the movie.

[kengs333]

The name of the film escapes me, but I believe she managed to hold onto the bridge support.

Excuse me then for telling you things you already knew. Who woulda thought!

"name of the film escapes me"

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOOLLOL

Oh, I bet! You've probably watched it a zillion times...

I've seen that movie and don't recall this incident.

Edited January 26, 2008 by kengs333

[Wild Bill]

"name of the film escapes me"

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOOLLOL

Oh, I bet! You've probably watched it a zillion times...

I've seen that movie and don't recall this incident.

I watched the damn thing! Saw a lot of talk but no actual video proving anything about anyone thrown from the bridge or whatever.

What I saw was a bunch of natives complaining in bewilderment about the hostile and negative reactions from the non-natives around them, after putting them through months of severe inconvenience.

Frankly, I resented wasting my time! It definitely has influenced my willingness to watch any more such videos. I don't have that many years left to waste them in such a manner. The only native video I care to watch is "Rez Blues"!

[joan]

I watched the damn thing! Saw a lot of talk but no actual video proving anything about anyone thrown from the bridge or whatever.

What I saw was a bunch of natives complaining in bewilderment about the hostile and negative reactions from the non-natives around them, after putting them through months of severe inconvenience.

Frankly, I resented wasting my time! It definitely has influenced my willingness to watch any more such videos. I don't have that many years left to waste them in such a manner. The only native video I care to watch is "Rez Blues"!

Well, that's a good one too!

If you watched both parts of the movie, you heard one of the girls tell about being thrown off the bridge.

The thing Canadians have to get through their thick heads is ... We have been travelling, building, etc. on land that is not ours. They have allowed the bridge to operate on their land for decades, but it was not convenient for them to do so at the time of Oka, so they closed it. Canadians have to get over thinking they are being 'inconvenienced'. We are not being inconvenienced: We are finally being told the truth about who owns the land rights.

[Wild Bill]

Well, that's a good one too!

If you watched both parts of the movie, you heard one of the girls tell about being thrown off the bridge.

The thing Canadians have to get through their thick heads is ... We have been travelling, building, etc. on land that is not ours. They have allowed the bridge to operate on their land for decades, but it was not convenient for them to do so at the time of Oka, so they closed it. Canadians have to get over thinking they are being 'inconvenienced'. We are not being inconvenienced: We are finally being told the truth about who owns the land rights.

Yes, I heard her say it. So what? People say all kinds of things. How is that proof? Why should I believe her? She has an obviously biased interest in the affair. I saw no one falling from the bridge. I saw no injured person. Just a claim to try to make the army look bad.

As for the land rights, we have also been paying BILLIONS of dollars a year to natives, from our taxes, for generations!

I for one am at the point to support overpaying the natives in one final settlement and then never giving them a dime again! It seems to me they now want their cake and to eat it too! Give them the land, but in the condition it was originally taken. They have no right to any windfall profit.

Besides, as I've said many times, Six Nations lost my support when they used terrorist tactics against the Caledonia townsfolk. I have sympathy for many other bands in other areas of Canada but not this one.

I am quite concerned that you can only push people so far. Sooner or later there will be a backlash. Governments have been slow to learn this about pushing the natives. Now it appears Six Nations may be making the same mistake with the townspeople.

Meanwhile, I don't go anywhere near Caledonia, if I have any choice at all!.

Edited January 27, 2008 by Wild Bill

[Rue]

Wet blanket time:

At that time (OKA) two Canadian soldiers threw 2 fourteen year old girls from Kahnewake off the Mercier bridge. One narrowly avoided getting sucked into the propellor of a passing freighter, had a smashed pelvis and cannot have children. That is what I think of when I see that photo: How two young Canadian soldiers saw two angry 14 year old girls as enemies that should be disposed of.

Sorry to hear that. I did not know that.

[Rue]

While Joan and Charter I deserve the wet blanket I still believe this does not reflect on the military. Idiots come in all shapes and sizes. Now I will shaddup I am just making matters worse when I am trying to assure a genuine soldier he has nothing but respect from me just as I respect you and Charter.

I think you are all honourable. These things you talk of are not. The depraved hyena who giggles at you over it is another story.

[Wild Bill]

Sorry to hear that. I did not know that.

Rue, it would be wise not to take this story at face value. It has been kicked around this board for a while and no one yet has provided any real proof.

It started off with a claim that "Girl pushed off a bridge! Here's the video!" Then when you watched the LOONNG video you realize that you never actually see a girl falling, or injured, or anything but but a protester shouting to the camera.

Then when someone asks why they never heard this story in the media we're told that "It's a coverup!"

Seems like mere propaganda to me.

Anyhow, you're welcome to make up your own mind, of course.

[joan]

Yes, I heard her say it. So what? People say all kinds of things. How is that proof? Why should I believe her? She has an obviously biased interest in the affair. I saw no one falling from the bridge. I saw no injured person. Just a claim to try to make the army look bad.

I am sure she would be happy to show you her xrays. Really, Wild Bill, I would believe her before you anyday. What a hateful thing for you to say.

As for the land rights, we have also been paying BILLIONS of dollars a year to natives, from our taxes, for generations!

I for one am at the point to support overpaying the natives in one final settlement and then never giving them a dime again! It seems to me they now want their cake and to eat it too! Give them the land, but in the condition it was originally taken. They have no right to any windfall profit.

I can assure you, they would prefer the land in its original condition. However, unfortunately most of it is pretty contaminated.

We have been paying nickels and dimes compared to what our true debt to them is. Do some research, lad. That is a silly argument.

Besides, as I've said many times, Six Nations lost my support when they used terrorist tactics against the Caledonia townsfolk. I have sympathy for many other bands in other areas of Canada but not this one.

:lol: Ya right! the old "let's call them terrorists" lie.

What a poor excuse for a well-informed person you are, wb: Drowning in mainstream media trash, and believing it?

I am quite concerned that you can only push people so far. Sooner or later there will be a backlash. Governments have been slow to learn this about pushing the natives. Now it appears Six Nations may be making the same mistake with the townspeople.

Meanwhile, I don't go anywhere near Caledonia, if I have any choice at all!.

Well I am sure you are not missed.

You are not "concerned". You hope something bad does happen. However, there has already been a backlash in Caledonia, a bunch of white supremacists and hangers-on repeatedly coming to town at invitation of a few local racists, to try to provoke violence. That has been dealt with by the police for now. The normal people in Caledonia just go about their business. There is no 'huge groundswell of opposition' against Six Nations: Just the same few nutbars and their 'masters', and no decent person is interested in being associated with them.

As for your support of 'settling the land claims' ... Anyone who truly supports that does not support our governments methods, because they lack 'good faith'.