Army Guy

NoCrap: Perhaps you can tell me just how it is that Soldiers lose, how Canadians lose. Have you even heard what 99 % of our soldiers have been saying about this mission, You know the men and women that are on the ground right now. Thats the problem with most Canadians they don't listen....They dismiss them as just dumb grunts, what do they know about rebuilding a nation. So i ask you WTF do you know about nation building. The reason most Canadians fell uncomfortable about this mission is because of the misinformation coming out of the Liberal, and NDP parties. That and the fact that both parties hate the US and it's current government so much that they let it get in the way of sound judgement. Before you throw on 60's vest with the peace symbol on it, you should do some research on Dafar and tell me what the difference is between Dafar and Afgan in regards to the actual mission there. Show me just how you came to this conclusion ? Because from a soldiers piont of view, todays NDP know nothing of peacekeeping or nation building.

Pocketrocket: What event or problems make you think so. It was a different war, in different times, A majority of Afgans want peace want to live a normal life. The Taliban is not out, and still are a threat to the new government which is not strong enough to stand on it's own as of yet. Thats the problem the existing government does not want western troops in thier country, so unless we invade, legally what can we hope to achieve.

geoffrey: We already have a very limited amount of pers (just over 50 pers)already in the Sudan, working as advisors. keep in mind that most of these operations are done by the army, and they are only using 2 depleted brigades to man them, the 1 st from Edmonton and the 2 and from Petawawa ont, The 5 th brigade in Que is not included, for reasons unknown... My Webpage The Darfur conflict is not over, the government in power does not want western forces there, Current African UN forces are assisting the government in routing out rebels, and other organizations. It is not a peace keeping mission but another combat mission. All this info is available on the web and must be known to our NDP members, which is why i can not figure out why they want to exchange one mission for the other. Canada is doing all it can for the 3 rd world right now, This is another problem and misconception, Canada's military is not a humanitarian organization, it was not designed to, it does not have the training nor the funding to do humanitarian work. This is one of the major reasons that our military is not properly equiped with equipment design for war, past governments have chosen equipment that is multi purposed, to serve both functions,( peacekeeping and limited warfare) and have chosen not to purchase offensive type wpns, such as heavy battle tanks, APC's, Hvy Arty, attack helo's. It's this type of thinking that puts soldiers lives at risk. Canadians have to decide what is it they want ? I think Argus got it right when he alluded to most Canadians would perfer our military dress in pink and handing out flowers at the airport. They need to be educated that peace only comes from the use of force, and the willingness to use force to achieve peace. It does not come from handing out teddy bears and chocolate bars.

What is driving the People of Canada to change thier minds about Afganistan? is it money, death of soldiers, the plan, what ? I can see why the Liberals are flip flopping, the polls are out, and they have based most of thier decissions on "what the polls say"....That and no leadership. liberals And why the is the NDP, now pushing for a withdrawal from Afgan, only to start over in Darfar, Can an NDPer explain to me the reasoning behind it ? what makes Darfar a better option ? What scares the NDP about Afgan ? NDP I have several of my young soldiers ask me Does'nt the rest of Canada know what we are accomplishing over here in Afgan ? And why do we put all this effort and sacrifice into a mission only to have the government change thier minds before the job is completed? And do they know that the Darfur mission will be just as dangerous if not more ?

Liam: my piont is to a soldier once you cross that line be it for a quickie, or long term relationship it does not matter, your branded, and your peers will no longer have trust in your abilities, to soldier. They see it more a piont of an honour code break it , and your done.. So whether your born with it or expermenting, does not matter. you've broken the code and life as you know it will come to a screaching halt, and eventually you will quit as it is not tolerated at this piont of time. And it may become more acceptable with time but things have not changed in the 26 years i've been serving. With the exception of Gay women, but even they are not totally free from harassment.

BD: Homophobic to the piont, that they turn a blind eye to beatings, Harrasment, etc. Im not saying that gay encounters do not happen, but rather piont out they are rare, even rarer in Combat units. Once a gay man has come out of the closet or is caught by his peers, this indiv is normally removed from the unit for his own safety. As his peers feel betrayed, and thier is no longer the trust needed for Combat. I'm sure if my wife was on the same battlefield it would be more of a distraction and prove to be actually counter productive. I think you can blame todays society for that, we've been taught growing -up, that gays were sinners by the church, by our parents, by our peers, we've grown up with the thought that being Gay is not exceptable... Anything can denude a unit of it's moral, finding out the best soldier in the Bn likes men, finding out he is a rapist, child molster, wife beater, taking part of anything that is not exceptable to the normal every day values or morals of Canadians effect the moral of a unit. Other than the fact that person will eventual lose all he has earned, his trust, his good standing within the unit, and eventual his job as he will quit. There is also a few high phyiscal threat of violence, harrasment, being put out of the circil so to speak. It's not DND policy, as any government dept it as been polictically corrected, there are strict rules and regulations that are enforced if anyone is caught threatening , harrassing or bulling a Male Gay member.. However even with these rules and regs are not enough to stop the actions of soldiers who refuse to fight or train with a gay member, eventually the indivdual will quit by himself. So to answer your question again, in the perception of a soldier it does make him gay or bi-sexual either is not exceptable to the other soldiers.

BD: Just curious on how the miltary got added to your list, Because the military has always been Homophobic in regards to male gay members. Lesbians on the other hand seem to be attracted to the military for some reason. And are somewhat excepted, however Gay males in is a different story Up until very recently it was don't ask don't tell, even in todays army it is a carear ender for males. Military members do bond together in a brotherly way, part of that bond includes trusting that indiv with your life, most and i said most know there is a line not to be crossed, and having a gay sexual experiance is crossing that line. Crossing that line would be a carear ender for a male. And would end that trust needed when your job includes having someone elses life in your hands. Yes there are rules and regulations regarding harrassment and discrimanation but in a 98 % male dominated ocupation those rules are bent alittle in regards to treatment of Male gays. And they don't last long in the army...I'm not saying thier are no male Gays in the army, there just not in the army for very long. So to answer your quote Yes it does make him gay, or atleast bi sexual, either way this indiv will not be long in the Army.

Gosthacked: This is not the first time DND has exericised in comunities, in fact it is done on a regular basis here in Pet ont, it's done for serveral reasons, realistic training, public relations, letting the people see what thier tax dollars get them. The use of blanks and pyro will be strictly controled to ensure safety of all. We do have limited (Company size) Urban warfare centers in the largest training areas, NB,Ont And Alta. Not very cost effiecient to ship them all by aircraft to train for the weekend. Just US troops as they are the subject matter experts at this time. And will be providing instruction on these types of operations. Why not, perhaps you can give one neg factor to using our own cities for training. Are you saying that a brief traffic jam, or longer line-ups at your local timmies are not worth a soldier recieving some much valued training. That we should not be seen or heard from until something happens to threaten your security. These guys pay taxes just like you.

I think before Canadians dig out thier 60's protesting outfits and thier bag of weed, they should do a little research on the UN mission to Darfur first. As a soldier i'd rather do back to back tours in Afgan than enter a region were life can be bought and extinguished for a cigarette. My Webpage

BD: At what piont has our government hid the fact that 4 soldiers died in Afgan. Because they refused the press into trenton there hiding something, What is it they are hiding ? They're not hiding anything, the left needs an excuse and they've picked a lame one... This event has been covered , all the hidden corners reveiled, and still the public is not satisfied. And the media has a lip on because WHY, they had to use telephoto lens to see the caskets being unloaded off the plane. The government made a decision to restrict the media from full access of the unloading process. Out of respect for the families, Yes one family has come forward out of the four, and requested the entire country see the unloading ceremony, "not all have done so", So i guess the country will have to suck it up and get thier casket ceremony else where. This is not about the principle of retricting the media, it's about the left having something , anything to bitch about, and the media not being able to sell another 30 second spot on thier shows. It's never been about our soldiers sacrifice it's about our quest to know every dirty detail of the event "OUR right to force everyone to be informed regardless of whom we harm...And now that Canadians are not getting thier fix, there has to be a cover-up. Freshinit: At what piont did our Government wave off Canadian Casualites ? And what event gave you the impresion we are treating this the same way the Americans do. Canada does not have a peace keeping image as most Canadians believe, Thats a myth that our previous governments used to equiped our forces. Nothing more.

Michael Hardner: Perhaps you are right, the PM should have been there. What i disagree is his statement . From a soldiers piont of view "what entitles them" to anything.he also says " He's wrong. Their arrival "home" is also a vital part of the story". Again where do we draw the line, where does the the story stop, when do we say we've seen enough, and allow the family to grieve in thier own way. While true that our military has more support than it did 10 years ago, it is no where near the support the had in WW II. Military members are constantly reminded during training that actions speak louder than words. The people of Canada have yet turned thier words into action..and to date most Canadians will say they support our military, but that is where thier support ends... Again what secrecy, nobody is hiding anything. Mr cretian was not there for all those that had fallen during his term in office either. does that make it right NO but i'm sure there is a reason.

Nocrap: Lowering the flag for our fallen soldiers is a fairly new thing (just over a year) in which the liberals started, it has not been tradition, It has been reserved for heads of state, or VIP's. Mr Harper did not spit in Mr Dinning face but declined his request for the reason stated above. There is a protocol for this type of thing that has been in place for as long as i can remember. I'm hoping, as a soldier that our Government and the people of Canada has already taken that into account before you send us on these missions. The media has already sent you images of flag draped coffins and images military cerimony and of them being loaded onto aircraft. and them being offloaded on the tarmac in trenton. What more do the people want ? Your right it's not the same but it happens, and it's disrespectful. These soldiers have done thier jobs our country has asked them to do, and the last thing "they" would want is for thier family and friend harrass during this time...And they will get the proper ceremony they deserve, but that it should be done without the media, without turning it into a circus , but keeping it focus on what it truely is. Soldiers have asked why is it now that Canadians are so concerned over the deaths of our Comrads, what ever happen to all thier support in the past ?. Why all the need for additional ceremony for the dead, when was the last time the media made a big deal about the arrival of our soldiers coming home from tour. When was the last time Canadians lined the tarmac in support of the troops just to say thanks, to shake a few hands. When was the last time Canadian people demanded they march in thier parades, invite them to public events, When was the last time you just walked up to a soldier and shook his hand to say thanks... I'm not saying that Canadians do not support the troops but actions speak louder than words. Soldiers have become accustom to lack of fanfare, and now question WHY ? now. What are your motives and are we being used for someones elses gain. PM Harper is following his own lead, those that can not see that are just using him as an excuse to slam Bush and CO, there is no similar methods, to how we bring our fallen comrads home and how they are covered. Again it's another example on how these deaths are being used for political gain, And it is disrespectful. Why can we not just honour these men, lay them to rest, then debate on what went right and wrong and come up with a solution on how do we get it right. We owe them at least that much.

Michael Hardner: Canadians are just now waking up to the fact that our military is capable of taking the fight to the enemy not just handing out candy and teddybears..and that "peacekeeping" was a myth. Every major mission Canada has taken on cost the lives of our soldiers. I think it has alot to do with the media coverage, media is now embedded with the troops where in Bosina they were not. Lets keep in mind this was a liberal mission, but Yes the change of Government has alot to do with it as well, and the opposition is using that by painting Harper as a "Bush wanna be" all with the hopes in getting reelected..

Michael Hardner: I agree with you totally, As a soldier i want the public fully aware of whats going on, But i also think that the Avg Canadian knows that already. They've been kept upto date of every detail on this incident. And now it is time to mourn and bury our comrads in peace and quite. without the media, or the rest of Canada watching it happen. In a show of repect...If the family wants the media then they will be invited if the family wants Canada to be thier you'll get a notice to be there. I would agree with you if they were uncovering some evil government plot or uncovering some crimanal plan, but what real news worthy event is going to unfold at a funeral for one of our soldiers. And does the avg Canadian need to see the grief and pain of the families and friends.

August1991: Yes the deaths have occured because of government policies, And it effects all Canadians or should. And the government has been very transparent with everything about this incident. What else do Canadians need to see or know...do they need to see the family break down emotionally, do they need to see the tears in the soldiers eyes as they lower the casket. What else do they need, Id like to know just where do we draw the line. To have these men used as polictical pawns makes me sick, Where was the Anti-war lobby when young Canadian soldiers were coming home in caskets during UN , or other peace keeping operations, then again where was the media, No where to be seen...Where was the rest of the Canada...Because it was a noble cause "nobody dies peacekeeping in fact peacekeeping is not dangerous". 26 candian soldiers died in Bosina alone, none made this much hoppla... Where was the Anti-war lobby when better equipment could have saved more of our lives,during these noble operations. where were they when Bosina cost canada 26 of it's soldiers...when crews in Sea kings were dying in seach and rescue missions because equipment was to old...They were not worried about keeping score then. If fact they are the ones that should hang thier heads in shame and we as Canadians should be kicking thier ass to the curb...

And this goes to show that the media has no honour code, And has proven that time and time again, Be it with your example or this example, it sells papers, and entices viewers. It's all about profit, and has nothing to do with respect , or honouring our fallen. Is it done with a measure of decorum,in the past after the offical cerimony on the tarmac was completed, reporters and camera crews were climbing over each other to try to get to family and friends for a comment...It was the action of a few soldiers that politily but firmly told them to "not today" which ensured a small argument and scuffle.. Then you would have a real story, one about cover-up...regardless of what the government does or does not do they are going to be wrong...In this case our government has been very transparent with this whole matter, it has allowed the media access to the camp in Afgan,to the troops that were involved, to all the rest of the troops, to where it happened, everything...Instead the media has turned it into a circus,A debate over the postion of our flag, come on whats next Lets move on to more important topics that concern our country. Every Canadian with access to the media knows that our country has lost 4 brave young men...That should be enough...Now it is time for family members, friends and DND to reflect on these losses, to mourn our comrads, and to lay them to rest...All without the media in our faces, without the concerned Canadians needing to see the tears and anguish of those now in mourning. What piont is that, and why does the media not use restraint. Should we not allow the family to decide at what piont they want to make a statement, if any at all.. My piont is this why should the Media or Canadians rights to veiw or read news trump over the rights of a family or friends in grief, or pain. What news worthy item could we possiable get from this other than perhaps a statement or action that the family will regret later on. Or are we saying that the media has every right to violate our rights in the chase for a story.

Michael Hardner: Are you suggesting that the rights of Canadian citizens out wiegh the rights of the family. And again at what piont do we say we've seen enough...You want to honour these men then show them and thier families your support..And if you think that you are doing that by watching the funeral on TV or reading an article in the paper your wrong. And your joking right, about the media, honour has nothing to do with it, it's all about viewers and selling copies, nothing more. I believe that the government has been asked by one of the families to limit the press and cerimonies.

Just what is it that Canadians have been shut out of ? Thier deaths have been reported in every media outlet across the country, who died,How they died , when they died, ETC ETC. Now your complaining that thier covering up something WHAT are the covering -up ? WHAT is it that you need to see or know about, How the military honours thier dead, is that what you HAVE to see..Do you have to see the coffins unloaded to confirm YUP theres four of them, or do we go further and open the caskets for everyone to see what the price of war looks like... Canada's time with these troops is over, now is it is the military's time to honour thier fallen comrads, and once that is done it will be the families time to honour and to put to rest thier loved ones. And don't give me that crap about you have the right to know, or the media has the right to cover the news...It's all about respect for our fallen. These events should not be about politics or turned into a media circus

BD: No you are right it was something the british demanded after being presured by the Arabs..And after the war in 48 that they did enact laws and rules that would make life in thier countries unbarable, forcing them to leave. I know to wrongs do not make a right, but why do we hold Israel accountable and not the other muslim countries. Israel has had serveral chances to expell or totally control the palestinian population and did not act upon them. However when it is the Israelis we scream and kick and shout those poor palestinain's...Below is a link into how many Jews are left in Arab countries can you say the same for Israel.. In 1945 there were between 758,000 and 866,000 Jews (see table below) living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 8,000. In some Arab states, such as Libya (which was once around 3 % Jewish), the Jewish community no longer exists; in other Arab countries, only a few hundred Jews remain. My Webpage

Gosthack: Your link does more to state my case than yours. I asked you to show me the current Palestine on a map prior to 1967. the maps you have shown me are of accient Israel. It also go's on to say that the rest of the implamation plan was not completed therefore what rights or claims do the Arab palestinians have on that contested lands. From your link Israel and the Arab states eliminated Palestine as a distinct territory....

4 of our nations soldiers are coming home soon in caskets, Accompanied by an honour party made up of close military friends. Which then they will proceed from trenton airport directly to where thier comrads will be buried. They won't be stopping in on ottawa to see if the flags are at half mast, nor do they care. Because all across every military base the flags will be at half staff until they are buried, the military will have thier own parades and services to honor these men that have made the ultimate sacrafice. As they always do when the military or RCMP, member dies in the line of duty. I would think that most Canadians would agree that this is not the time to argue about our nations flag postion on the pole, but rather a time to mourn our dead.

Gosthack: Show me on map where the palestinians had a state /country prior to Israel occuping thier lands. or for that matter show me anything that proves there is a palestinian country before 67 when Israel took those lands in combat... And prior to the Israelis capturing said lands whose flag was flying over that territory. Who did israel take the territory from.?

BD: Jews were proscuted well before any agreements were made,The british under preasure from the arabs restricted jew imigration into Israel, plus restricted jews from purchasing land in Israel. And after thier loss in the 48 most arab countries started to not expell jews but make thier lives difficult forcing them to leave... My Webpage My Webpage

Gosthack: AT the time there was no ARAB countries, just one big mass of people. under british control. And there was support for creating a state for israel within the arab community as mentioned in the below link. So at the time the creation of Palestine or what is now known as Israel made sense. My Webpage That being said at the same time Britian was writing the Balfour document it was also creating the States of Syria,lebanon,Iraq plus still owned vast qtys of land in Saudi Arabia, and northern africa, all of which was added to existing borders or seen the creation of other states now in that region. So why not a creation of a state of Israel? Britian also had control over Uganda now call Kenya, that they were considering to place the jews. Also Argentinia also agreed to set up an independant homeland for the Jews. On top of that a very wealthy Individual had purchased land in the US, Canada, And serveral other countries all for the purpose of migrating displaced Jews , but we know were that lead to. How ever none of these places had the jewish historical ties as the proposed state did, and the vast majority of jews and zionist perfered the lands now know as Israel. On top of all that The Holocaust brought the need for a Jewish homeland into sharp focus for both Jews and for the rest of the world. The Jews who tried to flee Nazi Germany were often turned back due to immigration limitations at the borders of every country, including the United States, Britain and Palestine. Many of those who were sent back to Germany ended up in death camps where they were systematically murdered. Like i said before states were created for the muslims only, Jews in these areas were deported into the mandated lands for jews. You seem to hold a postion based on what you've heard in the media. you should do your own research and form your own opinion. BD: It was the Arabs who demanded it as part of thier agreements. when thier states were created. Fleabag: Afganistan for one, remember the man with the Bible.

GostHacked: The US has and still is providing funding to most midle east countries for sometime now. As for them pulling that funding i don't think Israel is going to chance it do you ? One would think, they should have thought about all that before the threw in with the other Arab countries in thier attempt to crush the state of Israel...it's funny how it's OK for the Arabs to evict Jews from lands they had in Jordan, Syria,Egypt etc once it was decided they were going to create a state for the jews. But when it comes down to the creation of the state of Israel it's different. Just one question how many Jews are left in these countries ?