tango
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Posts posted by tango
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If the first nations can't rely on volunteers to protect their interests they should tax their own people and hire full time staff.
For example, my municipality is required to consult with residents before changing any zonings. If I decided I needed to protect my interests by participating in the zoning committees then I have do it for free. If I decided that I did not have time then I would have to pay someone myself. I would be met with howls of laughter if I asked the city to pay for my lawyer to act on my behalf in consultations which they are required to have.
If the aboriginal communities need to hire someone to look after their interests then they should pay for it themselves. They have no business asking others to pay for it.
Too bad. You are wrong.
This isn't First Nations seeking input.
This is our governments seeking to fulfill their legal duties.
I'll take a small wager on it though!
And I do wish you'd actually read my posts before responding.
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Why should they be paid? The government is constitutionally required to select citizens for jury duty and once selected citizens have an obligation to accept but all they get for their time is bus fare and lunch.
Why should consulations under the 'duty to consult' be any different than jury duty?
There is also practical matter. There is no free market for aboriginal consultants so there are no way to determine the fare market wage. If one accepts that they should be paid $34K for consulting - why not $34 million?
That is why I say aboriginals are not acting in good faith if they expect to get paid for their time providing consultations.
Why shouldn't they be paid? Everyone else at the table is paid. They need professional expertise to review the applications. They are First Nations governance and they are paid for their work, like everybody else.
Who the hell can afford to work without pay?
Give your head a shake!
How much do municipalities charge for reviewing development applications?
How much does it cost the the provinces to review/approve development applications?
Of course they have to be paid.
I say the provinces are not acting in good faith if they are not ensuring that funding is available to facilitate consultation.
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Can only find it in Google cache:
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:PD13H...=clnk&gl=ca
http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/belcarra-is-...ry-in-the-mine/
Interesting ... and did you notice who was not saying anything?
The province ... just laying low ... though facilitating the 'consultation and accommodation process is their responsibility.
Those are legitimate costs. It has to be funded, and it isn't clear at present.
Obviously, there's going to be a struggle between the municipalities/prov/feds over who's going to fund.
It's just political posturing.
It isn't resolved entirely here in Ontario either, but it is the province that has to step up to the plate, though they may try to recoup some of the costs from the feds.
Of course, municipalities charge exactly the same kinds of fees when they take development applications. Same thing, really.
Excuse me for doubting. I momentarily forgot about provincial evasion of responsibility. It's their strong suit.
eta - Upon reflection, I actually think this is a wise strategy by the First Nations: Money up front, and you governments fight it out!
Otherwise, they're stuck holding the bag as usual, with no funding.
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An interview on CBC radio. Municipalities trying to ensure they have fulfilled their duty to consult are now getting large bills from the native groups.
What "municipalities"? When?
The spirit of the SCC judgements require both parties to act in good faith to resolve potential conflicts. Demanding payment in return for this consultation means the natives are not acting in good faith. There is a difference between getting re-imbursed for out of pocket expenses and getting paid for time.I don't believe it.
The province (Crown) is responsible for facilitating the consultations, including arranging the funding. People do have to be paid for their time: The industry reps are being paid, the provincial reps are being paid. Why would the Indigenous governance reps not be paid? That's ridiculous.
And it's likely they would have to hire someone extra, as does the province, since they are not staffed for that - It didn't exist in the past.
Granted, the province of Ontario has dragged its feet until the courts ordered them to do it, so there may have been some anomalies along the way. However, that isn't how it really works.
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I think even in the best of circumstances you may be expecting too much if you want to discuss the intricacies of the law on this forum. I'm no lawyer and to me the situation seems quite simple, at least from what I know of dealings with aboriginal groups in BC. I'm assuming things are similar in Ontario but could be wrong on that point. Consultations are already required, and the steps you seem to be referring to look like they will have the effect of adding more red tape and discouraging investment. This may hurt not only the corporations that want to utilize the resources but the natives communities you are so concerned about as well.
BC was in the thick of it as soon as Sec 35 was in place, because there are no treaties there so there is less need for debate about whether rights exist. The Supreme Court rulings re 'duty to consult' all came from BC.
It's more complicated here in Ontario, and I believe perhaps the developers of this generation are more accustomed to having their own way here, so it's more contentious, perhaps. Certainly no engineers here would have learned about Aboriginal rights in college/university, and likely still don't. It's just beginning to be forced into their consciousness.
I would guess - maybe stereotypically and if so then someone can correct me - that the Alberta contingent wouldn't be too receptive.
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The "duty to consult" is a two way street since it requires that natives spend time providing the consulting services. This makes it difficult for small bands in areas where there is a lot of activity. Natives have started charging the governments thousands for their services as consultants which I can understand from their perspective but such fees go completely against the spirit of the SCC rulings.
Please provide a reference for that, because I don't know what you're talking about.
Actually, it is the provincial governments that are responsible for the costs, assuming they are the ones that want to approve a development/mining/logging etc operation.
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Indeed, quite fascinating. It can also be interesting to speculate about why North American cultures didn't progress much past that, while Europeans cities continued to grow.
Considering the topic of this thread, I should think that's obvious.
I'm all for learning new things and acquiring new knowledge. Of course, one can only learn so much (at least for now) and must prioritize. Clearly, we can't all become experts on the native cultures that existed here prior to the arrival of Europeans. For some, such knowledge may be of practical value, while for others, it may rather be extraneous.It's important to all Canadians, if we are to understand how Sec 35 of our constitution (Aboriginal rights) and the laws derived from that came about, like the duty to consult with Indigenous Peoples about development on their traditional lands.
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Reminds me of Old Sarum from Ancient Briton.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Sarum
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/upload/...9_1MB_SMALL.jpg
Ya, incredible similarities.
Stonehenge is the same kind of 'circle' as found at the 'mound people' locations.
http://pages.interlog.com/~gilgames/cahokia.htm
# "Woodhenge": an ancient astronomical device, also called a "sun-circle" (in the upper-left)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mound_builder_(people)
Mound Builder is a general term referring to prehistoric inhabitants of North America who constructed various styles of earthen mounds for burial, residential and ceremonial purposes. These included Archaic, Woodland period (Adena and Hopewell cultures), and Mississippian period Pre-Columbian cultures dating from roughly 3000 BCE to the 16th century CE, and living in the Great Lakes region, the Ohio River region, the Mississippi River region.[1]
While the prevailing consensus since the 19th century has been that the mounds were constructed by Native American tribes still extant at the time of European colonization of North America, none are aware of the civilizations that produced the mounds. Research into this culture is strictly archaeological.
Nobody knows ... nobody speaks ... but they are still here.
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Yes I did. I went over to the wikipedia article about Cahokia actually. Quite interesting, and I do admit I didn't know about it. Although, from what I've quickly gathered, Cahokia's population may have peaked at 8000-40000 people, and it was in decline long before Europeans arrived.
Nevertheless, I would contend that the evidence is not there to give any credibility to estimates of 100 million inhabitants in North America circa 1500. If you have links to any credible studies that contend otherwise I'll take a look.
I'm not trying to prove that. I don't know. I'm just providing information about the established civilizations in North America prior to 'contact'.
I found this statement fascinating:
At its height, around A.D. 1200, it had about the same population as London, England at the time, with over 10,000 people.
There are many other 'mound people' locations too.
And there are the petroglyphs in Ontario
http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dgarneau/indian6.htm
1,000 B.C.
The Ojibwa are believed to have created rock carvings in Petroglyphs Provincial Park, Ontario starting about this time. Joe Lister suggests; "Actually, the glyphs were made by the Iroquois peoples who inhabited the area long before the Ojibwe arrived. The Ojibwe from Curve Lake Reserve help to caretake the area, and hold ceremony there, but they do not know any of the stories that the images represent. The Iroquois, on the other hand, do know the images, and can tell the stories behind most of them. For instance, our creation story is there, with Sky Woman birthing her twins."
I just think we should be willing to learn about and understand the cultures that existed here, before we 'interfered' with them.
There is a whole lot more to their story, and ours, than we are 'encouraged' to know.
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Well ... another topic derailed, and we can't even blame benny.
Too bad.
It's important, but apparently understanding the current legal situation in regard to aboriginal rights is too threatening to some.
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Life isnt pretty. I'm not trying to do anybody a favour. I just tell it like it is
Tell your own story.
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Perhaps. Or more likely he is someone who shares your cause but is somewhat less tactful in expressing it. One certainly doesn't have to be aboriginal to hold hateful views of Caucasians.
On a more interesting topic ...
did you check this out yet bonam?
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How is it sterotypical and racist when it's the truth? Oh I get it, everyone else can openly slam indians and it's normal? Yet when something is said about whites that is true, it is considered racist?
You are not doing Indigenous people any favours, Griz.
Stop pretending to speak for them, please. It's offensive.
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Perhaps you'd like to condemn your buddy Griz whose every post is filled with hateful insults against people of European ancestry? Or is it only "racism" against natives that you condemn?
I'm not sure what Griz's game is, but I know he is not aboriginal. Maybe trying to make them look bad, though?
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Claims of 100 million natives in North America are preposterous. The evidence would be overwhelming and incontrovertible if such a vast number had lived here.
Ancient North America
There were hundreds of towns and cities all over ancient North America. Three were exceptionally large: Cahokia, Illinois; the Moundville Complex, spread out on the Black Warrior River in Alabama, and Etowah. These were simply the largest. There were many other important centres, as well as countless smaller towns and villages.
Cahokia's ruins lie on the Cahokia Creek near Collinsville, Illinois, U.S.A. At its height, around A.D. 1200, it had about the same population as London, England at the time, with over 10,000 people.
All of these sites were characterized by massive mounds of earth, remarkable constructions that must have taken many thousands of work-hours to produce.
There was a long history of cultural development in the American mid-west and south. The "Hopewell" culture complexes of 100 B.C. - A.D. 600 gave birth to the magnificent Missippians, who were at their peak when the Europeans arrived.
These urban and agricultural centres were destroyed when the Europeans arrived in North America, but the descendants of their builders have survived to this day.
...
Things to note:
* "Woodhenge": an ancient astronomical device, also called a "sun-circle" (in the upper-left)
* Artificial reservoirs
* Roads linking the city to outlying areas and other towns
* The palisaded (walled) "downtown" enclosure
* Temple complexes (reminiscent of Mesoamerican civilizations in Mexico and Central America)
* The "port", with boats and cargo canoes
* The ball-court, where various games were played (for sport or ritual) (also reminiscent of Mesoamerican civilizations in Mexico and Central America)
* The clusters or neighbourhoods of houses, showing some kind of clan, family, trade or other social-unit sub-organization, indicating a type of complex social structure
* The endless sea of farms, the wide extend of agriculture and areas under cultivation
http://pages.interlog.com/~gilgames/cahokia.htm
There is lots of evidence.
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A laugh:
http://farmreview.ca/images/uploads/2.jpg
Today's news from the site:
A commentary on behalf of the National Farmers Union Ontario
By Grant Robertson
We Ontarians have an addiction to garbage. If you have ever traveled outside the province it is not hard to see how poorly Ontario is at dealing with waste.
In Ontario we seem to have come to the conclusion that we have lots of ‘vacant’ rural land so we can throw our garbage in a really big pile, throw soil over it and forget about it.
more ...
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So you think expecting communities to be able to take care of themselves racist?
This is racist:
M. Dancer: I agree, they don't have the intellectual capital to do it themselves.report
ignore
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I agree, they don't have the intellectual capital to do it themselves. Amazing that a town can't find it necessary to train plumbers. Instead, they rely on the tradition of welfare.
Fixing their sewage is a temporary measure. First they should learn the basics on municiple planning and get their youth into trade schools.
First you should look in the mirror to see what a disgusting fucking racist pig looks like!!
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Racial slurs? Nonsense.... but if my sewage backs up I don't have to whine and complain. I call a plumber.
Do you know a plumber who can fix the whole town's sewage for free? They have no money to pay for it, and the feds won't help. Seems to have something to do with the mining development. Does your plumber make house calls to Attiwapiskat?
http://www.maplandia.com/canada/ontario/ke...t/attawapiskat/
http://wawataynews.ca/archive/all/2009/8/6...by-sewage_17818
Maybe read up a bit before passing ignorant judgment.
'Indian' Affairs is responsible for housing - part of the agreement when they were forced onto 'reserves'.
You can tell the quality of 'housing' INAC provides.
Housing designed to kill, imo.
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The question is farcical; it assumes royal assent equals dependence. By that logic, the royal assent required to make bills into law in any monarchy makes all those monarchies dependent on some as-of-yet unidentified power. Better tell the Brits they've been overtaken!
We can't make our own laws without the Queen's consent. Is that clearer?
And just to shake things up a bit ... The Queen/GG is also the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of Canada.
These are all safeguards to protect us from ill-intentioned and corrupt politicians.
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Please note, I have taken you off my 'ignore' list. You seem to be more civil these days. Let's hope we can keep it that way.
DAMN! I thought it was too civilized around here lately!
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Dear Moderators:
I have determined that Benny is in fact a computer program,
uh-oh!
# Start the Benny virus article or add a request for it.
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Yep it could be her too...and how is that revolutinary tratorous mate doing -- wait..........benny may just be...Shelia Copps - I heard she's off her medication these days ----that's a bad joke sorry -- Sheila and her old boss should take their "Don't choke someone today pill...
Sheila rocks!
Some people ask to be choked ... BABY!
Why do we discuss Canada's attempted cultural genocide as it's
in Federal Politics in Canada
Posted · Edited by tango
GO TrueMetis! GO TrueMetis! GO TrueMetis!
Fascinating, isn't it!
And we know so little ...