joan
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Posts posted by joan
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It is an interesting little story Rue, but just a story.
One point the Zealots miss is in reference to bayonets. We don't use them. Bayonets are issued for ceremonial purposes, parades and such, not for actual operational purposes. Especially not within the confines of Canada.
http://www.rrj.ca/issue/1991/summer/125/
From behind the tarpaulin, Mohawks-and a band of renegade journalists who have ignored army pressure to clear out-watch the shadows of soldiers fixing their bayonets for the first time since they replaced the Surete du Quebec (the provincial police) 17 days ago. Major Alain Tremblay, commander of C Company of the Royal 22nd Regiment, yells, "I'm not going to fuck around here. I have a military job to do, and I'm going to do it," and orders his men to "lock and load," a euphemism for "prepare to fire." Harry Oakes, an Akwesasne Mohawk known as Beekeeper, orders the Warriors to do the same. Then, as quickly as it starts, the confrontation stops. Robert Skidders, a 53-year-old American Mohawk known as Mad Jap, tells the Warriors to cool it. And they do.
This incident erupted less than 24 hours after the retreat-on orders from the: army-of a couple of dozen reporters, photographers and camera operators to a vantage point behind a shoulder-high wall of sandbags half a kilometre from the firing line. Lieutenant-Colonel Pierre Daigle explained that journalists "were simply getting in the way." But the journalists behind the wire stayed there in defiance both of the army and the example set by their more compliant colleagues. They were determined to provide an independent version of events in the Mohawk camp. Without them, as it turns out, the Canadian public would never have known what really happened the night the Oka standoff nearly became a shooting war-the time that came to be called the Night of the Bayonets.
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The matter is far simpler; the FN's of Caledonia are at war with the people of Ontario. McGuinty should act accordingly.
simply nonsense 
:lol: There is no law to support that.
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I agree, we've become too appeasement oriented. Maybe Wounded Knee was a bit extreme, but we've come too far the other way. The FN's are committing acts of war that take them outside of the normal protections of a civilized society.
You are missing the point: They are correcting our injustices against them.
And our law supports them, because injustices were done. It is as simple as that.
Only problem is our governments won't admit it, won't tell us.
But somebody has to tell us, because they are not waiting for our governments anymore.
Acknowledgment of their jurisdiction, a say in development and a share in revenues. Could be as simple as that too, all across the country, but our governments have other agendas than settling any of these claims, imo, like preserving the billion$ dollar 'land claims industry' and covering their own a$$e$.
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You obviously didn't watch the movie. They took the woman out of the water with a broken hip where she was slammed into the abutment after being thrown in their by a soldier. During Oka Waneek-Horn Miller (16 years old) was also stabbed by a soldier's bayonet. We're talking about two clear cases where soldiers exercised force against women who were absolutely no threat to them.
Nah, it was just the lunatic actions of a bunch of army misfits doing what they are trained to do...beat up defenseless women.
Hmm ... a bit harsh, perhaps, but a point well taken that there certainly is a problem with that.
I hope the public and police (OPP2006) reaction is changing that ... Nobody wants that,
except maybe sicko predator types, of whom even one alive is one f*predator too many, imo.
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I support neither the troops or the OPP when they use guerrilla tactics against women and children. But I guess that what happens when you put guns in the hands of outcast misfits soldiers and psychotic and racist paramilitary police forces.
This strikes me as a bit over the top, charter.
just saying ...
It's about bridges, not guns.
holitoot!
chilax!
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Sorry, but excessive force being used by soldiers at times in these kinds of situations is commonplace, so your constant bleating about this is really not going to stir much sympathy who are not as naive as you. The fact that this is all that happened (I doubt the story about the 14 year-old girl(s)) does speak to the resolve of the soldiers, as it was a tense situation where things easily could have gotten out of hand. And let's not deny the fact that the Indians were trying to push the situation to the brink; that's how it always is--they're always trying to work the situation so that they can make themselves out to look like the victim. I'm not sure what difference it makes what gender the stabbing victim was; I seem to recall the women making a big deal about how they were defenders of the land and were deeply involved in all of the posturing. So one of them gets injured and suddenly it's "violence against women" oh, the poor, frail, helpless woman has been victimzed by men yet again? Give me a break.
They were 14 year old girls.
Go back in your hole, eh?
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You're generalizing. Many baby-boomers are doing all they can to stay in their homes rather than move into condos. Retirees and seniors are not all incapacitated to the point they can't maintain their property and proud of it.
The boomers that decide to remain in the family home rather than moving into condos pass on their properties to their kids when they die. Many of those that move into condos also sell their properties directly to their children. The glut you're referring to is yet another generalization on your part.
Of course, this is all IMO.
Of course, and mine too.
We can't discount that there is very good reason for downsizing our rampant and ghastly plans for expansion, given that land in the intensification areas ... the 'Places to Grow Act' in Ontario ... the Haldimand Tract ... is now in dispute.
You may be right about the large houses transferring within families from boomers to their echo-boom. However, there aren't as many of them, and even fewer in front and behind them:
http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/a...rts/chart13.htm
It isn't just condos, smaller one story houses too. Lots of people prefer other things to do instead of house and yardwork, like walking, lawn bowling, sailing, traveling, etc. There will be a variety of choices, but the demographic tells an interesting story for housing, I think, and for retail too, come to think of it.
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This was my entire point! It's not a matter of blame. If HDI doesn't find a way to establish some credibility with developers they will have a very quiet, underworked office.
The HDI can offer all the permits it wants. If developers don't trust HDI they won't bother applying for a permit from HDI OR the province!
They won't develop there at all!
As for Joan's claim that there are all kinds of HDI permits happening with all kinds of developers, let's look at the land a few years from now. If she's right then obviously there will be all sorts of buildings upon those lands.
If they're still bare, as I suspect they will be, then she's talking through her hat again, venting her wishes instead of reality.
We'll see.
I'll look forward to your evidence on that. However, there likely will not be as much development as was anticipated and already approved: Some kinds of development are not on the Haudenosaunee plan, and have stopped (Douglas Creek Estates, Walmart, Edwards Landfill expansion with local landowners, Hagersville, York, action in Brantford).
I am so glad they have done this. There is rampant undesirable development ... SPRAWL on the greenfields out there, in a watershed that was full to capacity 10 years ago (GRCA). It's disgusting, UNNECESSARY, soon to be WHITE ELEPHANT development that nobody wants, and nobody wants to look at. It is disgusting, as I said.
Caledonia is a jewel waiting to be cut properly and burnished: A paradise for retirees who want to look down at the beautiful river and town and green and rolling countryside that is the valley of the Grand River, and walk a block to the old downtown, to the river trails, riverside, or drive 15 min to Lake Erie beaches, sailing. I could go on ... but you get my drift.
They need to do what we all need to do: Scale down, intensify, use the brownfields, restore buildings, downtowns (stop demolition.). GET PREPARED for the baby-boom downsize into 1 level accommodations with all conveniences and amenities nearby. Currently the bulge year itself is 42-43 years of age, likely already in family homes, and their parents are still too. However, the parents are leaving them in increasing numbers for the next 20 years, and the shadow of the baby boom will be a horrible glut of such houses leaving ugly scars on the land that was ... maybe crack houses of the future?
:lol: imo, there is room for lots of development of the right kind. I think it's great that Haldimand County Council is putting a trail from Caledonia to Lake Erie. That will be very popular, and will draw/keep the people who need more intensive housing: the young and the 'elder'.
-edit to add- I believe this is David Crombie's direction. The trail ... restoring bridges ... other options for development.
Point being, I guess, it isn't a race for the most or the money, but a quest for the best for the people and the earth, and I totally support that. So we will have to agree on appropriate measures. More is NOT better.
Innovation will get a big shot of 'motivation', I expect.
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I highly doubt you can provide a link that shows this condition of the sale, but please try.
I think there would be reason for a claim for damages. Based on what was accepted it would be the principal amount, valued at the highest price for land at the time, plus 5,000 pounds per annum (the were told to expect 3,000 - 5,000 pounds). Done! Next claim please!
http://www.citizensofcaledonia.ca/PDFDocum...mand_County.pdf
You miss the point, noahbody: They never gave up ownership of the land to the government: The government only acted as property manager. The land was and is theirs.
No I don't think the leases and mortgages are available online as they are part of the negotiations. However, it is a pretty standard clause that the property reverts to the seller if the buyer defaults (and they virtually all did.) Six Nations is currently conducting an information campaign up and down the Grand to inform people that the land belongs to them. I don't see anyone even trying to stop them. The government knows the truth. They just don't have the guts to tell us.
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The documentary film is called 'Rocks at Whiskey Trench' Rue. It is available free online. Make sure you see part one and two.
No I do not believe it reflects on the military. However, their lack of response to it does say something.
I am not anti-army or police. I support the troops, the police, etc., most of whom do their jobs well. When they don't, though, it is a travesty. However, it is the response (or lack of) from higher ups that I question.
I don't know if any of you watched the Senate hearings about RCMP Commissioner Zacardelli, but I'll tell you it was both extremely distressing and disheartening, and encouraging at the same time. Zacardelli lied his face off, twisted words, told partial truths, etc. His next in command called his bluff, called him a liar, and all the officers in the crowd guffawed in agreement. It is a case of "the front line is ok but the management SUCKS".
However, I believe that kind of corruption does filter down to the 'line' and gets imitated there.
The soldiers at Oka were far out of line. We were told nothing about it. I wonder if the girls had died ... would we have been told that either? I doubt it.
It is not the people, it is the systems that are ingrown and corrupt, and all still carrying on the same way they did in the 20's 30's and 40's when Canada's ethnic cleansing campaign was in full swing.
Only the OPP have had a wakeup call.
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While Joan and Charter I deserve the wet blanket I still believe this does not reflect on the military. Idiots come in all shapes and sizes. Now I will shaddup I am just making matters worse when I am trying to assure a genuine soldier he has nothing but respect from me just as I respect you and Charter.
I think you are all honourable. These things you talk of are not. The depraved hyena who giggles at you over it is another story.
No I do not believe it reflects on the military. However, their lack of response to it does say something.
I am not anti-army or police. I support the troops, the police, etc., most of whom do their jobs well. When they don't, though, it is a travesty. However, it is the response (or lack of) from higher ups that I question.
I don't know if any of you watched the Senate hearings about RCMP Commissioner Zacardelli, but I'll tell you it was both extremely distressing and disheartening, and encouraging at the same time. Zacardelli lied his face off, twisted words, told partial truths, etc. His next in command called his bluff, called him a liar, and all the officers in the crowd guffawed in agreement. It is a case of "the front line is ok but the management SUCKS".
However, I believe that kind of corruption does filter down to the 'line' and gets imitated there.
The soldiers at Oka were far out of line. We were told nothing about it. I wonder if the girls had died ... would we have been told that either? I doubt it.
It is not the people, it is the systems that are ingrown and corrupt, and all still carrying on the same way they did in the 20's 30's and 40's when Canada's ethnic cleansing campaign was in full swing.
Only the OPP have had a wakeup call.
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Rue, it would be wise not to take this story at face value. It has been kicked around this board for a while and no one yet has provided any real proof.
It started off with a claim that "Girl pushed off a bridge! Here's the video!" Then when you watched the LOONNG video you realize that you never actually see a girl falling, or injured, or anything but but a protester shouting to the camera.
Then when someone asks why they never heard this story in the media we're told that "It's a coverup!"
Seems like mere propaganda to me.
Anyhow, you're welcome to make up your own mind, of course.
Wild Bill, you need to do some research on 'systemic racism'.
W NEVER hear the truth about our government's actions against Indigenous Peoples. If you want the truth, you have to go looking for it. The government won't tell the truth. The police won't tell the truth. The media won't tell the truth.
We all know that we have a lot to lose to their legitimate land claims. Is debt to another jurisdiction a good excuse for a sustained campaign of racist propaganda? Or should we perhaps be trying to work things out amicably since we all have to live here?
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Yes, I heard her say it. So what? People say all kinds of things. How is that proof? Why should I believe her? She has an obviously biased interest in the affair. I saw no one falling from the bridge. I saw no injured person. Just a claim to try to make the army look bad.
I am sure she would be happy to show you her xrays.
Really, Wild Bill, I would believe her before you anyday. What a hateful thing for you to say.As for the land rights, we have also been paying BILLIONS of dollars a year to natives, from our taxes, for generations!I for one am at the point to support overpaying the natives in one final settlement and then never giving them a dime again! It seems to me they now want their cake and to eat it too! Give them the land, but in the condition it was originally taken. They have no right to any windfall profit.
I can assure you, they would prefer the land in its original condition. However, unfortunately most of it is pretty contaminated.
We have been paying nickels and dimes compared to what our true debt to them is. Do some research, lad. That is a silly argument.
Besides, as I've said many times, Six Nations lost my support when they used terrorist tactics against the Caledonia townsfolk. I have sympathy for many other bands in other areas of Canada but not this one. :lol: Ya right! the old "let's call them terrorists" lie. What a poor excuse for a well-informed person you are, wb: Drowning in mainstream media trash, and believing it?
I am quite concerned that you can only push people so far. Sooner or later there will be a backlash. Governments have been slow to learn this about pushing the natives. Now it appears Six Nations may be making the same mistake with the townspeople.Meanwhile, I don't go anywhere near Caledonia, if I have any choice at all!.
Well I am sure you are not missed.
You are not "concerned". You hope something bad does happen. However, there has already been a backlash in Caledonia, a bunch of white supremacists and hangers-on repeatedly coming to town at invitation of a few local racists, to try to provoke violence. That has been dealt with by the police for now. The normal people in Caledonia just go about their business. There is no 'huge groundswell of opposition' against Six Nations: Just the same few nutbars and their 'masters', and no decent person is interested in being associated with them.
As for your support of 'settling the land claims' ... Anyone who truly supports that does not support our governments methods, because they lack 'good faith'.
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We owe them nothing] :lol: :lol:
only in your dreams!
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In your brain I'm mistaken...in reality, my taxes pay for both welfare and child tax credits...both of which the natives make great use of. At least that's the ticket in my neck-o'-the woods. Maybe in your area natives enjoy 100% employment...but I truely doubt it.
Heavy white-man's guilt? Well don't be too upset. Without "ol' whitey" there'd be no riches for the natives either. This would be just another 3rd World country. Probably with Chinese masters...lol.
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A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials.
---Chinese Proverb
Did you even read what I wrote?
We don't pay them anywhere near what we owe them. Get a grip and save your whining for when we have to pay what we truly owe them.
No guilt here ... when you acknowledge the truth, the guilt goes away. It is only those who try to keep themselves in denial who feel 'guilt' because they know they are wrong but won't admit it to themselves.
The truth will set you free!
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What is interesting, and disturbing, on this topic is that the federal government IS free to direct the activities of the RCMP, where the Ontario government is NOT free to direct the activities of the OPP.
Evidence:
OPP Oath
I solemnly affirm that I will be loyal
to Her Majesty the Queen
and to Canada, and that I will
uphold the Constitution of Canada and that I will,
to the best of my ability, preserve the peace,
prevent offences and
discharge my other duties as a Commissioned Officer,
faithfully, impartially and according to law.
RCMP Oath
I, ............, solemnly swear that I will faithfully, diligently and impartially execute and perform
the duties required of me as a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and will well and truly
obey and perform all lawful orders and instructions that I receive as such,
without fear, favour or affection of or toward any person. So help me God.
The RCMP owe allegiance ONLY to those who give them orders (and who that is is not defined), whereas the OPP have an individual obligation of loyalty to the Queen (including the Queen's Treaties) and to uphold the Constitution, independent of any orders they may be given.
The RCMP is in need of a major overhaul, and clarification of their responsibilities to protect the freedom and rights of Canadians, because right now, OUR rights are overridden by any orders they receive from anyone 'above'.
I do not believe we are protected from dictatorship. Harper controls the RCMP and the army. So did every other Prime Minister.
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The point has flew past you entirely. I don't give a f--ckin damn bout ancestrial land. If we went by that we'd be too tangled up in legal matters of land that never belonged to us.
If i screw a native and we have a kid does he have land claims then?
No the point was you want your family's land back, and for that you have just as much right as Aboriginal people, IF you have lawful evidence of ownership, as they have.
I am not sure what the rules are for membership in Indigenous Nations. You might want to check it out before you make a hasty decision to go that route.
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On my dime. apparently.
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A misery is not to be measured from the nature of the evil, but from the temper of the sufferer.
---Joseph Addison
Actually, no, we live on their 'dime': Canada's economy is ENTIRELY dependent on resources from Indigenous land, from which they get NOTHING. We have been nothing but thieves and parasites since we landed here five hundred years ago.
You are mistaken.
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You're dodging me again!
Let me put it in simple enough terms for you. Developers trust in their governments and the system in developing non-native lands. Given the events in Caledonia this past year it's not likely they'd put any trust in the HDI to develop any land over which HDI claimed jurisdiction. They would feel that they could pay HDI and in a few years either face more monetary demands or even a protest to take their development away from them.
You can rant and roar all you want that this perception is wrong or that someone like me has no right to even mention it. Who cares?
HDI doesn't have to convince me or anyone else on this board. They have to convince any developer that otherwise would have been interested in investing in disputed property. You can claim they don't care 'cuz they don't what the land developed anyway. If so, then why create HDI in the first place? The mere existence of HDI implies they want development, just under their control.
What I'm saying is that we can disagree till the cows come home. What will prove the point is how many developers pay HDI and start development.
If lots do then you will be proven right. If few or none pay HDI then my point is valid.
That's reality. It doesn't matter how you or I feel about it. A fact is or is not.
I hope that wasn't too complicated...
The developers are convinced. Some searched their titles all the way back and found that their "titles are not clear": There are no documents of transfer of land from Six Nations to the Crown in the Ontario land registry.
Developers are already doing business with the Confederacy, have been for over a year, LOTS of them. Think about how many developments are going on in the Haldimand Tract ... a huge number, and most of them are already doing business with the Confederacy, now through the HDI. However, the developers are under no obligation to tell you or me or the public about their business so we do not know how many, what they paid, what their agreement is, etc.
The developers can take the HDI to Canadian court if they wish, now or later.
I heard the developers have been informed by their lawyers that they will lose, though, because Six Nations claim is legitimate. The land belongs to Six Nations, not to Ontario, not to Canada, not to Cambridge, Kitchener etc.: The land belongs outright to Six Nations. They don't want to put us out of our homes, but they do want acknowledgment from our governments that the land is theirs: A say in development and a share of revenues from their land.
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I watched the damn thing! Saw a lot of talk but no actual video proving anything about anyone thrown from the bridge or whatever.
What I saw was a bunch of natives complaining in bewilderment about the hostile and negative reactions from the non-natives around them, after putting them through months of severe inconvenience.
Frankly, I resented wasting my time! It definitely has influenced my willingness to watch any more such videos. I don't have that many years left to waste them in such a manner. The only native video I care to watch is "Rez Blues"!
Well, that's a good one too!
If you watched both parts of the movie, you heard one of the girls tell about being thrown off the bridge.
The thing Canadians have to get through their thick heads is ... We have been travelling, building, etc. on land that is not ours. They have allowed the bridge to operate on their land for decades, but it was not convenient for them to do so at the time of Oka, so they closed it. Canadians have to get over thinking they are being 'inconvenienced'. We are not being inconvenienced: We are finally being told the truth about who owns the land rights.
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Sort of a cliche' statement...no offence.
Well, they'd better hit the books because the drop-out rate is somewhere in the 70% range if I'm not mistaken...and that's with all yea olde leg-up social programs.
Birth control, as well, would be a bit of a blessing for the natives as they are an incredibly young population...27 yrs or something amazing like that. Seeing 15-16 year old native girls pushing a pram with one more kid on foot behind can't be a great way to get ahead in this world...unless you count multiple child tax credit cheques as getting ahead.
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Circumstances are beyond human control, but our conduct is within our own power.
---Benjamin Disraeli
Dropout rates are down to 50% and dropping fast, postsecondary rates of enrolment and success are up greatly. Half of the population in our colleges are mature students with families, both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal. Having kids young is no deterrent to education. The population is young because the Elders died young as a result of abuse and trauma in the residential schools. They are rebuilding their population and will continue to do so.
Your ignorant and stereotyped comments only show you know nothing of the topic, and have nothing intelligent to say, so why bother?
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The Supreme Court of Canada agrees with you so I would say the only issue now is how do we create a solution that properly acknpowledges and provides restitution for the breaches and enables a relationship in the future that is mutually beneficial. I think certain nations have in fact demonstrated they have been able to come up with some very progressive resolutions that fairly compensate and recognize aboriginal rights but allow aboriginals and non aboriginals to work in joint ventures.
I think this is possible. I think as well because so much of Canada is about mineral rights and we have been so careless in selling those rights away to China and Japan and the US and been ridiculously short sighted on the environmental damage our extracting processes have caused-we have to understand the aboriginal component is not just about assuring aboriginal rights-it helps us assure we engage in practices that are harmonious with the rules of nature.
Those mineral companies working with aboriginals in mutually beneficial agreements have not had their profit harmed in engaging in environmentally safe practices the aboriginal peoples were able to teach them how to incorporate into their extracting activities.
The knowledge aboriginals have as to harmonious environmental practices are invaluable and ironically unlike some of the posters on this forum, these companies are deliberately turning to aboriginals for their knowledge.
That to me is the way of the future.
This is why I keep stating aboriginals whether some believe it or not represent the future not just the past.
You are right about all of that. Traditional knowledge is something we have not paid enough attention to, and we can benefit greatly from that.
In the Haldimand Tract, this issue is not mining or logging (though it is elsewhere), but development. The process the Haudenosaunee Confederacy has put in place involves reviewing all development proposals in comparison to their own population expansion and economic development needs, as well as environmental issues. They will approve, change or halt developments to be consistent with their plans. They also negotiate a share of revenues, or a flat rate for revenue sharing.
Revenue sharing is a huge issue right across the country, as Indigenous Peoples get no share of the resources taken from their land. The government is not negotiating these revenue sharing agreements in good faith, just refusing to consult, or dragging things out and hindering them in any way they can.
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The RCMP is thinking about having all their officers know both official languages and laying off those who can't speak at least half-decent French, the Canadian official language. Perosnally, I am absolutely appalled at how negative English Canada sees the French. They don't take the time to learn Canada's second language and expects the government to give everything to them at the expense of French Canadians.
Link please?
I believe you are exaggerating. They wouldn't lay them off, just reassign them where necessary.
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The protest of the 41 agreement has nothing to do with lots not being paid at all. You'd better take a refresher course. The issues are distinct.
The land was surrendered to the management of the government on condition that they arrange sales and leases and put that money into Six Nations Trust fund. If a mortgage or lease was in default, that land reverted to Six Nations. Almost all went into default, and reverted to Six Nations ownership long ago.
The surrender is irrelevant because it was voided by the government's noncompliance with the terms - failure to lease and sell the lots and collect the money for the benefit of Six Nations.
Now, I don't know about you but if I contracted with a property management company and they failed to account for the money, I would be certainly be entitled to void the agreement!
The Coward of Caledonia?
in Provincial Politics in Canada
Posted · Edited by joan
Again you bypass the point:
Valid sales, leases require that payment be made, or the property reverts to the original owner.
The people who leased/bought Six Nations land never made payment, so the land reverted to Six Nations long ago.
The Confederacy is now in the process of informing the residents of the Haldimand Tract and their municipal governments of this fact.
See, the government is caught in a deceitful web of governments' own making, and refuses to address either possible outcome:
- If they say the lots were legitimately sold, they have to provide the money (in today's currency, with compound interest)
- If they say they were not paid for, Six Nations owns the land outright.
- As for leases, the outstanding payments are HUGE, and the Ontario land deeds are invalid.
For example, for one portion of Brantford the outstanding leases amount to $252b in today's money, and compound interest has to be added to that, according to a recent ruling of the Supreme Court.
This is the dilemma our governments find themselves in due to Canada's consistent pattern of illegal acts in regard to Aboriginal land.
Six Nations can bankrupt Canada all by itself, if that is what they chose to do. Instead, they are working with governments and residents to arrive at mutually acceptable solutions. The difference is that this time the balance of benefit will be theirs, not ours, for a change. I am quite certain, for example, they will not kidnap and torture and murder our children.
We should be thankful they are decent people not inclined to revenge, and not inclined to the devious and hateful things our governments have done to them. They are better people than we are.