Wild Bill

Absolutely! It has been that way since the Shah fell! What planet have you been living on?

Punked, I would agree with you that there are predatory money lenders in this world. That being said, where you and I seem to disagree is that I believe in individual responsibility - countries like Greece should never have borrowed the money! These weren't children here, Punked! These were leaders of their nations! Are you saying they were somehow poor mental defectives who only borrowed money because someone tricked them? I can understand if you simply hate bankers but I don't understand how you can let presidents and other leaders of countries off the hook scot-free! This is why so many people think the left has no concept any longer of individual responsibility! No one makes mistakes. We are all victims of criminals who are labelled such simply by socialist definitions.

I agree, Dre. I think it was a cultural thing. Germany had a far different work ethic to its culture than Greece or some of the other countries. For political reasons, the leaders of Europe at the time they formed the ECU wanted to include ALL the countries! They didn't seem to worry much about what might or would happen in the future. Perhaps they thought that Greece, Portugal and the others would somehow change their culture and become like the more fiscally responsible countries. If so, they were dreaming in technicolour. Was it Thatcher who said that socialism is an experiment that runs until someone ELSE'S money runs out? The voters of these deadbeat countries have been conditioned to think that they can have what they want and can ignore fiscal reality. If the German bankers cut them off they seem to think that by exerting pressure on their own politicians that will force other countries to give them what they want or need. Very illogical but very typically human. Man, are they headed for a reality check! I expect the deadbeat countries will drop the Euro and return to their old currencies, thinking that devalued currency will somehow be accepted at par to pay off their debts. This of course cannot happen. They are going to learn a very hard lesson! Hopefully, other countries will profit from their example and not copy their folly...

Yet eyeball, you know as well as anyone that within a few years of forgiving every country's debts a very large number of them would just go back into debt again, with perhaps Greece and Portugal at the head of the line...

Hey Max, it's a scary world! Just hoping to teach a young feller where the crocodiles are hiding along the pathway...

No Snacks, you're not the only one! People have been seeing this since the vote was invented. You are getting an eyeful of basic human nature. Part of it is just youth. All of us are born the same way and our brains develop in a similar fashion. When we are young we have the ability to absorb information at a ferocious rate but it is later that the brain develops a better ability to see consequences and becomes more critical of that information. In effect, when we are young we tend to swallow information whole and accept it as true, unless it comes from our parents, of course! :P This is why it is so important for teachers not to allow their own biases into their classroom, particularly political ones. Jesuit teachers in the Catholic church used to say "Give me a child until the age of 7 and he is ours for life!" By this they meant that if they could control how and what a young person was taught they would be able to imbed their own ideas so strongly that for the rest of his life the child would likely never question them. At your present age, what does your perspective say about the quality of any Canadian civics courses you were given in school? If any, were they delivered in the early grades or at the end of high school? How "in depth" were they? Nature abhors a vacuum. If young people receive little or no Canadian information they will rely instead on whatever they pick up from other sources. Our media is full of American civic information, some of it even from Sesame Street! It is therefore not surprising that there are so many misconceptions among not just young Canadians but Canadians as a whole as to how our own system works. As to thinking you can just total all the people who did NOT vote for Harper, this is another example of human nature. Most of us are not very good at math concepts. We can argue about whether we are born this way or our teaching is so poor in this area but it doesn't matter. A lot of people drop math as fast as they possibly can in schools, in favour of "artistic" stuff or whatever. So they are poorly equipped to understand real world mathematical examples. Then, we must also consider that it is also human nature to see the Universe and how it works the way we WANT it to be and NOT the way it is and does! So because they don't like the fact that Harper's party won, they twist the math! How long have religions held beliefs as to how the world was created? All of them have been wrong in the light of every scientific discovery Man has made. You would think they would have stuck to the spiritual world and not try to argue with evidence and physics. Most have never done this. When you think about it, they are telling their God how he did everything! Perhaps because that means they can reduce the glories of the Universe to a level of their own understanding, eliminating the need to actually THINK and LEARN from the discovery of new evidence and deduction from reason! In effect, most religions are offshoots of the "Church of the Presumptuous Assumption". Yet the fault doesn't lie in their specific religion per se but rather the way they abused it. Science has never had a conflict with religion. It has never claimed any knowledge about an afterlife or the existence of any Prime Mover. It simply tries to let Man understand how the PHYSICAL Universe began and works! Most religions over the years took the position that they already knew everything about that, leaving them vulnerable as Man discovered contradiction after contradiction. Again, it's human nature, Snacks! An inherent arrogance that lurks within our collective soul, if you like. I don't remember who said it but someone said that Intelligence is a mathematical constant, divided by the number of people in any group. In other words, although one would expect that the more minds you bring in to deal with a problem the better you would be able to deal with it that rarely seems to be true. The bigger the group the less intelligence it seems to possess, judging by how long it takes to make a decision and how effectively that decision actually works! For the rest of your life, as you examine government in all its forms and all its many tentacles of departments and areas, the fact that you are asking these questions now guarantees that you will see that government ALWAYS follows the longest, least efficient and most expensive path! That has been true no doubt since we had tribal governments when we lived in caves. Believe it or not, this aspect of Man's nature is not all negative. There is a good argument that what appears to be so negative is actually a positive survival trait! There has been a meme in the circles that chew over these ideas for at least 60 years about what engineers call a "homeostat". In simpler words, a homeostat is a device used as a governor in a system to regulate its operation to a smooth equilibrium. You might have a steam engine that should run at a constant speed. If you sample the power at the output end and apply it as a "negative feedback" factor to the earlier stages, if the power becomes excessive the negative feedback will tell earlier stages to throttle back, bringing the output power back into line. Social development can be like a steam engine. If left unchecked it can find itself racing faster than is safe for the society as a whole! Some change can be dangerous. We might invent muskets but not safe rifle barrels, having them blow up in our faces. Someone might invent a new way of tending crops that boosts yields in the first year but depletes the fields the next, leading to starvation. So there is a need to have us progress in shorter, safer steps if society as a whole is going to survive with the least amount of pain. Most people who skate the edge fall off! Only a small percentage come up with a practical improvement that the tribe can then adopt as a whole. The overall problem with human development is the same as that homeostat in the steam engine. You need the generator and the governors to be in balance to a positive operation. By this I mean that if the regulators are set to allow the engine to race too fast it might fly apart, while if set too low we get a poor level of output power. Historically, it seems whenever we have periods of rapid advancement we follow them with long periods of much slower improvement. As a group we have too many people who cannot adapt to rapid changes, either with understanding how the Universe works or having a good-paying job when so many factories are pulling out to China. There was a time when we put a man on the moon! The first half of the 20th century was a period of intense and rapid technological change, which dramatically improved the quality of life for millions upon millions of people. Yet today we do very little new in space and Obama has seriously slashed even that! There are hopeful signs, as with the SpaceX company and some others but nothing at the moment to equal the Apollo program. The computer revolution has become an evolution. A video card may be faster and paints more detailed pictures but it is still a video card. The Internet is becoming a mature system. It is no longer a revolutionary development but an everyday tool in our lives. Change came so fast it became painful for more and more of the tribe! Too many people have lost their jobs and find themselves too old to be able to change or adapt yet too young to be able to retire. The stronger such factors the more they tend to resist change. Schools and public institutions are the areas that are the furthest behind. When I was leaving high school the community college had just been invented. The idea was that you could go to a Mohawk or Sheridan College here in Ontario and be given a trades oriented education by teachers who were fresh from such industries. Companies were told that they would be receiving workers who were already largely pre-trained, reducing their costs in getting such new employees up to speed. Perhaps that was true initially but 10 years later those "fresh from industry" teachers were still there. They were no longer so fresh. Now we find teachers that have been there for over 35 or more years. Companies have to do their own training again. The rate of change therefore is slowed. Our homeostats always seem to be only marginally effective. Either the social engine is flying apart or we get a thousand years of stagnation, as with the Middle Ages in Europe. So that's how I see it anyway, Snacks. An old guy's perspective on things. Make of it what you will! I give it to you in the sincere hope that you find at least some of it useful.

I tried to get my 95 lb German Shepherd (Fred, I call him!) to use those bags. It got really ugly! I won't be doing that again!

Punked, I would never say anything as dumb as that! Why would I suggest hitting ourselves over the head with a hammer? To make ends meet, I recently took a part time job in a call centre. I sit in a cube farm all day and call businesses, asking for their help with various charity events. After doing this for just over a month, I am scared witless for the Ontario economy! The number of businesses that have gone under, are going under or are hanging on by their fingernails is unbelievable! Ontario is in bad shape. Worst are the ones having anything to do with manufacturing but the spinoff businesses are in the same boat, right down to body shops and service centres. Some of the conversations I have had might even make YOU cry, Punked! These are not wicked, rich capitalists going bankrupt just to be pricks to their employees.These are guys who in some cases have run their family business for 30 years, only to see it shriveling up and dying. One older gentleman today said he has not seen it this bad since the depression during Bob Rae's provincial term. Worse yet, things seem to be getting worse and not better. I think this would merit a thread of its own in the provincial section. Several small factory owners told me that the cost of electricity is killing them. Their cost has more than doubled since McGuinty took over and also just keeps getting worse. They are already investigating leaving Ontario or just shutting down completely. I don't get much time during a call to talk about these things and of course it's never a good idea to talk politics during a charity call but this is what I have been gleaning and as I said already, it's a scary window on the province's economy! Raising corporate taxes in this environment frankly seems to be a suicidal move.

Dre, I admire people who will actively fight for a cause. I have even done so from time to time myself! I just don't admire fighting the wrong targets. That is, targets who can't help you achieve your goals. Putting a domestic steel company out of business will not protect workers' wages. Why not fight the government for "green" tariffs on steel produced in countries that have no compulsory anti-pollution measures imposed on their manufacturers, like China, Russia and India? If they save $20 per ton by making steel in a dirty manner why should we allow them to ship product into Canada where they can out-compete our domestic manufacturers? Forcing our domestic manufacturers to give more benefits to their workers while they are being forced out of business anyway by foreign competitors is just plain stupid!

Perhaps, but the world has changed and the labour movement often seems to be completely oblivious to competition facing employers from outside the country! Stelco, now U S Steel, must compete with product from China, India and other countries. The Hamilton local spent a year on strike for nothing. U S Steel still can't compete with the cost of producing steel in Hilton works against those countries. The union demands were not just impossible to meet but totally irrelevant to the modern market situation. If U S Steel had have met their demands it would simply have had their plant go bankrupt. Period and end of story.

Sorry August but I truly feel your Quebecois bias is showing! I don't think your views are the majority outside of Quebec. That being said, many Quebec separatiste politicians, including and especially Rene Levesque, were monarchists! They would have kept the Queen even after dumping TROC! Anyhow, we must agree to disagree, mon ami.

I dunno, Dre! Greed, I guess. I have never liked the idea of dealing with China. I just can't get that picture of that brave young man in front of the tank in Tiamanmen Square out of my head...

It is not up to you or I to decide if Harper deserves it. It is for the Queen to decide. Somehow, the fact that you don't like him is not likely to be a part of her decision.

Oh, I don't know Rue! I've never thought of you that way at all. You seem like a nice person who would make good conversation. You just don't suffer fools gladly! I admire that! We likely will never meet face to face so in the meantime I will hoist a brew in your honour.

You know, as an older guy I can't help but feel insulted by much of this anti-monarchist feeling that comes from people of either recent immigration or of non-British stock. We WERE very much a British derived nation! We had some communities of folks from other areas but they were expected to adopt OUR values and in the main they did! They were welcomed and appreciated as new Canadians. Culturally, they became the same as the rest of us. After WWII that began to change. We took in many from war torn Europe. Then in the late 70's we began a deliberate policy of choosing immigrants from non-British or European sources. At the same time, our own prosperity began to decline. By the end of the 80's it was hard to attract people from Europe and Britain. They were much better off staying where they were! So we then started to get massive numbers of new Canadians with no feelings toward our traditional culture. Times change and countries with them. It would be a separate thread to debate if this is a good thing. Still, one thing is very, very obvious to me. If someone way back before this all began had told me that eventually the newcomers would be demanding we give up our Queen and our original traditions I WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN SO ACCEPTING OF THE NEW FORMS OF IMMIGRATION! I believe I am far from the only traditional Canadian to feel this way. It is very much like welcoming strangers into your home to feed, clothe and support them only to have them demand you remodel your home to their liking! Frankly, when I hear this talk it seems like I'm being hijacked! Kicked in the teeth for my generosity.

You are truly amazing, Topaz. Instead of being proud of Harper if he receives such an honour from our Queen (NOT from Britain! From our Queen! There IS a difference!) you instead have to let your own prejudices dominate your POV. I suspect you think only Liberals should ever be honoured with anything...

Detained for a fart? At least he wasn't beaten or shot with rubber bullets! That's a breath of fresh air!

No need to be humble, Waldo! In the heat of debate things often get confused. Socialist seemed to be saying that the West had destroyed the climate in Africa with their rampant capitalism and therefore should give them compensation. I was pointing out that giving them anything is a waste of time for ANY goal! Socialist seems to blame capitalism for everything including rainy days. Anyone who has studied the history of Africa can clearly see that it is not that simple. It's a historical fact that many African tribal chiefs sold their own people into slavery. I'm not trying to say that historically there never were abuses from western countries, or that climate change has not caused droughts in Africa. Still, those are separate issues. One can agree the climate is changing yet have a difference of opinion if it is caused solely or mainly by industrialization. To deny the power of Mother Nature herself has always seemed arrogant in the extreme to me! Africans have caused some of their own problems, as with deforestation changing local climates. I feel Socialist is just harping on one note, to the point perhaps of becoming unrealistic. This is not a useful approach to solve any problems.

Please show me where in my post I even referred to climate change at all! I simply was commenting on the futility of giving more aid money to a continent rife with corrupt, militaristic governments. A despot is a despot, rain or shine. Giving them more money is hardly a positive solution.

Uncalled for, Wyly. I've reported you, for what it's worth. I have certainly never spoken to you in such a fashion. Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

She is our Queen! And sir, your words appear to be treason. It is not a matter of self respect. You are simply insulting, in a juvenile fashion, those who are loyal.

Quite right, Smallc! It's amazing how many people don't even know that we have not been British subjects for generations! We share a Queen with Britain. That's all that has been left for a long, long, time. And I thought I was an old guy stuck in the past! There are still many Canadians who support the monarchy. There is another large segment that don't really think it important but would resist any change. This idea rises up every 10 years or so. Usually, as you said, based on ignorance. We have the best of both worlds. We share the grand history of Britain and its laws and institutions but we have total independence and are masters of our own fate. Calling for abolishing the monarchy has always seemed to me to be a rejection of that heritage in the guise of escaping a domination that hasn't existed since before WWII, or even WWI! Frankly, that can't help but lead to some suspicion of the true agenda...

Is it possible that this is really mostly a Quebecois POV?

Are you suggesting this should be somehow valid or even binding for a whole province or country? Isn't that sorta like if the Tories had a discussion and then a vote within their own caucus, making it binding on everyone? Even if, like the students, they were not only not in power or Opposition or even an official party within Parliament? I would think that the students would have about as much validity at the political level as a vote taken at a meeting of the Rotarians, or even among drinkers at one and only one bar!

It's about perspective, Manny. If you see everyone who might disagree with you about something as a demon, then perhaps you are raising snakes under your hat! It also shows incredibly shallow thinking as a world view. I can't help think much of this stems from simple ego. Someone believes that everything he champions is good and right, therefore anything to the contrary must be evil and wrong. What's more, anyone who shares his beliefs is a saint and anyone who leans to the contrary must be a demon. Since that someone of course hates demons and tries to strike them down at every opportunity then he himself must be a helluva great guy! See? Very simple, really.