Wild Bill

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe this is the way he SHOULD be! All leaders need to be a bit narcissistic. If you don't have a strong belief in yourself you simply cannot lead! Look at generals like Patton. Look at any good manager you've ever known. Some folks are too quick to paint a character trait as negative without specifying the context. Usually this is because they are simply looking for anything and everything to serve as a criticism of someone they didn't like in the first place. I find this a very effeminate way of looking at people. I have noticed over the years a definite gender difference in how we rate other people. For example, in a workplace or team effort, a man may not like another fellow but still perfectly recognize him as a good worker or skilled at a certain task. Men can work together despite not liking each other. Women however tend to put their confidence in someone solely on how well they like them! If they like someone they want them on their team. If they don't, they don't. They never seem to think about performance as a separate factor. Perhaps this is why old Toronto tends to be so left wing, with the high population of male metrosexuals. There! Things have been slow and boring lately! That should be good for at least 20 pages of flames!

Again, because we would import cheaper American dairy products! And again, the reason things are more expensive in Canada is a different question.We have to specify which things we are talking about. We can compete with apples but not with oranges or bananas. \ With pineapples we are not even in the game! Perhaps we should start a different thread.

Why not, Waldo? The party has walked like a PC party and quacked like a PC party since it was formed!

Your premise was specifically stated that ending supply management would not reduce the price of such products in Canada. I pointed out that with those products that ARE under supply management the price WOULD go down, due to much cheaper imported product being allowed into the Canadian market. That was the basket under discussion. The question about non-restricted product being cheaper in the USA is a different one. Volumes could be a factor. We would also have to literally specify apples vs. oranges.

I think every PM since Confederation has made cabinet changes over the summer break! What else is new?

You are wrong! Dairy products are restricted imports. When is the last time you saw any American milk, ice cream or cheese in an Ontario supermarket? The answer is you never have! About the only thing you might occasionally see is some novelties that are actually made from "edible oil products". When is the last time you saw American chicken or turkey? Yes, there is lots of beef, fruits and others. That's because those products do NOT have marketing boards/supply management! Nobody ever said that ALL grocery products are cheaper in America but dairy products are a large chunk of the Canadian typical shopping basket. Next time you are in a supermarket in Ontario, look for yourself!

People cross border shop to save money. If prices in Canada were the same as in New York, why would they cross the border? Dairy products coming in from the USA would drive prices down to the same level. I think what you missed is importation.

I don't know if you are right or wrong but I do know it would stop zillions of dollars lost to cross-border shopping.

Actually, Michael, I would like to see him do it too! I just want to point out that it is not as simple as some portray it. I suspect that federal governments have wanted to dismantle supply management boards for a long time but were afraid to take the issue on. Such practices have tied their hands with international trade agreements and also have ticked off far more voters than it has attracted, since it is the voters who have to pay the higher prices and we all know there are far fewer farmers today than long ago. However, Quebec is the exception. True, Harper is in a position where Quebec gives him nothing so why should he try to curry Quebecois favour? Well, if he cares about the PQ rising from the dead the next Quebec provincial election he rather has to care. That is why he is consulting with not just Mulroney but also Chretien, two gentlemen that he has NEVER considered friends! He needs their experience with Quebec - experience which cannot be denied. Me, I would adopt YOUR suggestions! Harper doesn't need Quebec and although I would prefer a united country, I have never desired it at the price Quebec has often demanded. When Quebec costs TROC more than she contributes then its time to let her go her own way! I've always been a great believer in letting people feel the consequences of their actions. It's the only way many people seem to learn, especially when we are talking large groups. In many ways today's society has sheltered too many people from winning Darwin Awards, where their mistakes tend to weed out the culls and improve the species. More simply, if someone is so damn sure their idea will work then I say prove it! Let it happen! That includes the people of Quebec. If they democratically choose to separate then that is their right. What is NOT their right is for them to determine the terms of separation! I think they would be very surprised at the attitude of any federal government towards separation negotiations. TROC would be angry and bitter. It would be political suicide for any government to appear to be too soft in such an agreement with Quebec, EVEN IF THE TERMS ACTUALLY WERE FAIR! Divorces are virtually always more emotional than rational. More important, if Quebec were to leave it would have no seats to ever again offer a TROC party. So who in Ottawa would give a damn about them? They would be concerned with winning votes in TROC. So I agree with you that Harper could simply change the laws! It would sent the NDP screaming yellow zonkers, of course. Their support is overwhelmingly from Quebec! Still, with a majority government he can pretty well do whatever he wants. Screams from Quebec would likely only win him more votes in the rest of the country. Yet much as I would like to see it happen, I just don't think it will. Harper DOES seem to want to keep the country together! He sees Canada as a confederation of equal provinces, unlike other parties like the Liberals who always seemed to see it as some kind of republican/constitutional monarchy hybrid, where Ottawa was supreme. He might believe that Quebec has been treated in a favoured fashion (which it has!) and want to make some adjustments but still, all in all he would like to see us stay together. The price of dismantling marketing boards would be a resurgence of separatiste parties and feelings in Quebec. I don't believe he will pay that price. Dammit!

Punked, I HAVE been hearing them! I've been hearing them all my life! I never denied the left doesn't have alternatives. Just that they never seem to have ones that will work! Remember, I am a techie - a Utilitarian. I have NO time for faith or "people must realize..." type alternatives! I've always agreed with Margaret Thatcher, who said something like "Socialism is an experiment that endures until it runs out of other people's money!" To be fair, for most of my life the NDP was always the underdog, which meant they had to take their support wherever they could get it. This meant the fringe groups, taking positions of support that would never have to be implemented. It was always safe to be more emotional than practical! Now the world has changed. The NDP has a very real chance of grabbing the brass ring! They no longer have the luxury of supporting fringe ideas that might backfire. Worse yet, they might only get one chance! Look what happened to Bob Rae in Ontario! You can divert the argument all you want into areas of who is to blame for what and what factors were beyond his control but the fact remains that many of his party's ideas did not work. People instantly jumped on Rae, saying "What did you expect from these guys? We always knew they were loopy!" This was not at all fair. Everyone makes mistakes the first time around. It's just that the NDP has a rep and its rivals would love to pin it on them! If they could win even one term and not scare all the business out of the country and piss off every westerner who feeds his kids from an oil sands job, then they might even win a second one! If their leader is more like Tony Blair and not like Ed Broadbent I might vote for him myself!

Actually punked, I admire you for it! I'm glad you are having a good turnout! God help us if we all thought the same politically. How would we polish up ideas so that there was less chance of mistakes? There is nothing that can destroy any organization faster than "group think". As I've said many times, Harper bugs me sometimes too! If you folks can knock off some more rough edges I will cheer you on! I may not agree with a lot of NDP policies but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate your spirit and commitment! If your party ever got in power then as long as you learned from your mistakes I think we would all be the better for it. I have been saying for a long time that the federal NDP in Canada needed to modernize, a la the British Labour Party under Blair. It seemed to me that was the direction Jack was taking you. Just don't be so dogmatic that you see anyone who disagrees with you as an evil enemy! It will only slow all of you down! People disagree with you because they don't think your IDEAS work, not because they are evil and delight in hurting their fellow man. Quite often their goals are identical to yours. They just have a different idea of how to achieve them.

It's just that they always offer up poorly thought out suggestions that could never, ever work! It's always based on "Business has a duty to do this!" and "People have to understand the need to make this sacrifice!" and so on and so on... Never anything that people WILL do, until the left gets so frustrated that no one will listen to them that they go all Stalinist and start trying to put guns to people's heads... :P

I did no such thing! I was working in my riding association as hard as I could to get the Liberals out! I was too busy actually doing something to cry!

Hey Punked, why don't you stamp your feet and cry? That would prove how calm and logical lefties are!

As opposed to the bigots on the left who hate Harper for any reason they can think of? You don't offer up suggestions, you just call him down for doing something contrary to your leftwing agenda, which would mean him losing most of his traditional support if he ever did such a thing and pleased the leftwingers like yourself. Sorry Rick, you seem another blind political partisan hack to me, at least from the arguments you put forth. You seem to live in a world a bit outside the real one. This is why I rarely support leftwing leaders. They offend my sense of Utilitarianism. You rant over the way you think things OUGHT to be and ignore the reality details. Not that I don't see much of the same on the right but man, the Lefties always seem to win that race hands down! If the lifeboat was sinking they would be arguing over the position of bailer being gender neutral!

Narcissism? Maybe Harper is in the lead for that. Again I say, so what? He IS a politician! At least he doesn't talk to his dead dog at a seance! I just cant' understand why so many believe their political heroes must be saints and shining examples of the "perfect" personality. If they were normal they would never run for election!

But Michael, that is precisely the point! We CAN'T "simply allow imports"! It's illegal! THAT'S WHAT THE SUPPLY MANAGEMENT MARKETING BOARDS ARE ALL ABOUT! You keep suggesting that we can do one while ignoring the other! We can't! The marketing boards would have to be dismantled first and that would involve stupendous political issues, particularly in Quebec. If you think Quebec's reaction to Harper cutting some artists' grants was significant, you have no idea of what they would do if he allowed dairy imports from other countries to cheaply invade their province! So to debate any solutions to the problem we HAVE to deal with the marketing board issue! Or do you have a suggestion as to how our politicians can ignore the law?

Well, you must admit that he does have a logistic problem, Rick. Since Quebec is such a socialist culture, if he pleases Quebec he screws himself for support in the rest of Canada. After all, the rabid left will never vote for him anyway! Besides, the reason he needs to repair his party's image in Quebec is not for his own sake. He's already proven that a party no longer needs Quebec to have a majority. So he could tell Quebec to go pound salt if he wanted! That would likely IMPROVE his support in the rest of Canada! No, he is doing this to try to suppress a rebirth of separatism in Quebec. He and his party might not gain but I do believe he sincerely wants Canada to stay united. That's an honourable motive. Stupid and a waste of time in my opinion but honourable, nonetheless. I'm curious as to just what you think he SHOULD do? Have you any suggestions that would not involve him committing political suicide? Frankly, I have never heard any other type of suggestion from you. I can understand you don't like him but expecting him to deliberately "die" is rather inane, don't you think?

Rick, aren't you making a mountain out of a molehill? Except for blind, partisan leftwingers, who the hell cares? Harper is a politician! Of course he's narcissistic and mentally unstable! Name me ONE politician who isn't! And don't even THINK of using Elizabeth May for your example! Man, sometimes I think you'd turn a rainy day into a partisan event...

The OP said it was about "Harper is going to have to drop protectionism". Protectionism is essentially synonymous with our supply management boards. Hence the addition of such to the discussion, along with how entrenched these systems are and how various parts of the country would react to any changes. What did I miss? We cannot simply allow imports! American dairy products are banned at the border because of supply management systems.

I forgot about turkeys! I don't know if ANYONE from Hamilton to Niagara Falls buys their Thanksgiving turkey in Canada anymore!

Well punked, so far all I've seen proposed is alternate planes that could fill the job as ornaments or flying targets! In all the months we have been chewing over this any alternative has really been just a debating point that leads to not having any planes at all, for a plane that can't do anything useful is indeed just an ornament or a flying target.

Just HOW would we drop prices to consumers, Michael? We can't tell the farmers,wholesalers or grocery stores to just drop their profits or even sell at a loss! No, the only tool governments have is to subsidize food prices. So we would all be taxed more to lower the price of food! Plus, we would have the additional costs of government inefficiencies, or would you really go so far as to suggest that the government could administer such subsidies very efficiently? Even more ironic, subsidizing food prices is essentially what we are doing with supply management! The only difference is that the subsidies come directly from the end user, when he buys the product at an inflated price. Seems to me that any form of tinkering in the market always gets ugly in the details...

Thanks Michael, I see it now. A mention indeed, although not really anything more. Every housewife in Niagara who cross-border shops for groceries has been well aware for years of the price difference with American dairy products and also chicken. Someone mentioned 30%. There are always sales that make this figure much less accurate. Prices almost always are MUCH better than on the Canadian side. This is what has always put the lie to those claims from talking heads that overall there are no savings from crossborder shopping. They compare things like electronics or whatever as an attempt to discourage people from going over the Peace Bridge. Every housewife involved has always laughed at these claims! They don't cross the border for a new stereo! What's more, at the top of their grocery list are dairy products and chicken.

They did not kick Ontario's trash, BC. They kicked TORONTO'S trash! Toronto is in a universe of its own. Please do not include the rest of us Ontarioans with those very, very odd people!