Wild Bill

I just can't believe how blind people can be! Thank Heavens for some of the posters in this thread and on MLW as a whole! Toews and his boss Harper are plotting to turn our prison system over to American companies, so that those companies can get rich on Canadian tax money! Why would they, some might ask? Curse you for being a doubter! They are doing it for the sheer joy of evil! If prisons then become hotbeds of abuse of prisoners, why, so much the better! Everyone knows that ALL MPs in Harper's government are evangelical Christians! Everyone also knows that evangelical Christians believe that all prisoners should be flogged daily, in order to save their souls! Only Liberal and especially NDP supporters would not be so evilly inclined! That is a given fact of the known Universe! I'm really surprised that some still don't seem to have seen this...

Obviously they did or they wouldn't have done it! There seems to be something wrong with the criticism from certain posters, a criticism which we often see whenever events of long ago are examined in a modern light. Critics expect those who are much older to share their "modern" values! It is only recently that beauty contests have become politically incorrect. A 74 year old man or woman likely has a completely different opinion of such events, formed when they were younger. Why on earth should they be expected to change their values? Because some younger folks have followed a different trend? We are all entitled to our views and opinions. To tell a senior citizen who hid in a forest from Nazis who would have exterminated her that she should change her views about beauty pageants is arrogant in the extreme!

Where did you get the idea I'm some sort of blind partisan Harper supporter? Obviously, you haven't read anything I've been posting for 5 or 6 years now. Please find another straw man. Or I will treat you like you just treated me! As for the idea that because they haven't been in government I can't tell what they would do, are you suggesting that all the suggestions I have heard from the NDP since the late 60's when I started paying attention are invalid and worthless, since if they ever got into power they would do something completely different? I think I'll just put you on ignore. If you can label me a Harper blind partisan then in my opinion you are just a hack who pays no attention to who says what and just lashes out at anyone who disagrees with your POV. Life is too short to waste.

No one has a problem with lefties wanting to protect Canadian jobs. The problem is that they usually want to do it in a dumb way that won't work! Their usual suggestion is to just subsidize a company with taxes, making everybody else a little more poor. Or they will want to ban cheaper imports of a product that competes with something made in Canada, forcing everyone to pay more for the product. Meanwhile, such methods do nothing to make Canadian manufactured goods competitive on the global market, which means there will be no export business. Unless of course, we subsidize the exports, which will piss off all the other countries in the world and get them to ban OUR products! Unless these "lefties" offer a suggestion that would mean Canadian products would truly be more competitive, nothing they offer will actually WORK!

So you think its ALL about labour costs? That the extra cost of "green" regulations is too trivial to consider, even though there are other countries that have NO such extra costs? I see. International corporations will not build new refineries in Canada because they are pricks who don't want Canada to get the jobs. I assume domestic companies must feel the same way. Thanks for making that clear! I never would have known.

Actually, I've always been rather grateful towards Jews. They gave us Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks! That HAS to count for something! Excuse me. That was my saddle blazing...

If domestic refineries were such a good idea then why haven't new ones been built by the private sector already? Why have they been closing old ones? What no one wants to face is that Canada has put so many expensive "green regulations" upon refineries that it would be the stupidest idea in the world to build more in Canada! Years ago, these regulations brought lots of photo-ops and one would assume votes to the parties that enacted them. Now, some decades later, we have far higher demand for refined petrochemicals and fuel yet we have discouraged companies from building. The chickens have come home to roost! You can't have your cake and eat it too! Over the past few decades, what was the NDP position on new regulations for refineries? Did they give any thought to the eventual results in the oil marketplace? Not that I'm singling them out. The other parties were no different.

Am I missing something here, Waldo? You are suggesting that we should have the capability to watch intruders, while not having the capability of doing anything about it? Please correct me if I misunderstood your post.

"They would care if there were enough of them." And if my granny had wheels she wouldn't bump her ass when she hopped! How's that for mixing metaphors? "Do you think voting for someone you don't approve of is more appropriate or would it be better to stay away all together? " Unlike you, I don't expect or believe in perfect choices. I have never yet seen a party or candidate who 100% matched my own values. I don't think it realistic to expect such! So it is ALWAYS a choice of trying to find the best of an imperfect bunch. As for staying away altogether, I don't disagree that may make you feel better. If something or some one bothers you that much I can understand not wanting to have anything to do with them. I just don't believe that the rest of the world gives a damn what you do! So it is a valid personal choice but an insignificant statement. "If a candidate you do support has no chance, should you not vote for them or just stay home because after all, according to you it is a wasted vote?" You changed my words here! I never said that it was a wasted vote to vote for someone with no chance! I said a spoiled ballot was a waste of time! Please don't cheat in your arguments! Voting for a candidate who is perceived to have no chance is a perfectly sensible thing. First off, who says they have no chance? Surprises do happen. Second, sometimes if you can make a good showing you put yourself in better shape for the next race!

301 ridings, with an election every 4 years, on the average? I never said it didn't happen. I just said it didn't happen very often. You ignored my point that politicians STILL don't care anyway! How about I agree that technically you are correct, in a nitpicking, anal-retentive, matters less than mice nuts way in the real world? I still maintain it's just a pointless thing to make drama queens feel self-important.

How often does that happen? If you think long enough you can make a long shot scenario about anything. Besides, it doesn't matter! Politicians DON'T care! Period and end of story! You can stretch things as much as you like to try to make your POV realistic but it's a waste of time. They just don't! Get over it and deal with the real world! As I said, spoiling your ballot is just being a drama queen. It's an ego stroke to make you think you are somehow important, just because you commit an irrelevant act!

You are right in theory, Wilbur. It's just that in the real world, the number of spoiled ballots is still mice nuts against the totals! Politicians are very pragmatic beasts. All they care about is whether they win or they lose! Do you really think that in a riding where perhaps the total votes amounted to several hundred thousand the winner OR the loser stayed up all night because 12 of the votes cast were spoiled?

Yeah, but you are the exception, I believe Sir!

Is it, CC? I'm not saying I don't forgive, I just don't forget! A party's culture can give it a disposition towards repeating mistakes. I do understand that changes DO occur! I just don't accept "marketing" claims without wanting to see some proof. I've become very leery about "hype" over the years. Whatever, I still think that it is more positive to be realistic and accept that there is no perfect choice than to have blind faith when it comes time to vote! I could see myself voting Liberal or even NDP if things changed someday. I get the sense from many NDP supporters here on MLW that they could never do the same as far as voting Tory! To them, it is more a religious situation. They could not vote for someone not in their church! No need for facts and discussion - being a heretic is enough!

Well, perhaps I am just harsher on politicians and parties than you. You cited "the only thing they've done recently" as what bothers you. Me, I NEVER forget! I still hold things that happened over 40 years ago against them! I realize that the people that make up parties change and evolve over the years but still, parties have a culture of their own and some cultural traits can last for years and years before they change or die out. Just because a party changes its leader doesn't mean there are not still lots of the same party members in the gang, influencing action and policy. As the old saying goes, a politician's worst nightmare is a voter with a long memory!

You don't share my perspective, CC. I will be 60 this fall. Over my life I have seen ALL parties do things that I considered unconscionable! So I accept that they are ALL flawed and as I always like to say, I vote for who smells the least! As a side note, correct me if I'm wrong but I get a sense from you and some other posters that you consider your own team "saints" and all others "sinners". This attitude has always puzzled me as it just doesn't seem logical. ALL could be saints or ALL could be sinners! The virtues or foibles of one choice are totally irrelevant to those of another. Or am I reading too much into some posters enthusiasm?

I've been a scrutineer before. I know what a spoiled ballot means - squat! No one cares! Sure such votes are tallied but the numbers are very small. It's really just an ego thing for whoever is doing the spoiling. NO ONE cares in the slightest! Not being a drama queen myself, I would never bother doing such a thing. The sad reality is that the ONLY thing that has any chance of change is actually voting! The chance may be vanishingly small but everything else has a chance of ZERO!

Well Corporal, we are going to find out how many, very soon...

I feel sorry for the NDP in this regard. I chalk it up to their inexperience with being a powerful party rather than the traditional 3rd place also-ran. I don't think they have yet realized just how dicey a tightwalk they're on! They are used to a very loyal support base but their new and expanded base is a different animal entirely. They are either Quebecois or people who have never voted for them before. Both these groups have no history of loyalty to the NDP and have very different values and expectations than that traditional support base. They could leave them almost en masse if they feel disappointed! If I were a NDP strategist I would be having many sleepless nights between now and the next election.

Topaz, I guess you haven't been following the thread very closely. With the exception of the F-22, which is NOT for sale, they are all cheaper because they are all older generation technologies. One of the key factors is stealth technology, which means being VERY hard to pick up with radar and other detection methods! This makes a plane very hard to detect and shoot down. The F-35 is the plane for the future. ALL your examples, again excepting the F-22 which no one can buy, do not have any stealth capability remotely as good as the F-35, if at all. Canada is asking for a new plane that will be useful and competitive for the next few decades. She also wants a plane where some of the manufacturing contracts can be filled by Canadian plants. The F-35 does that. If we go with a European choice we don't get any Canadian jobs from the deal. Really, your link doesn't present ANY real alternatives for us at all!

Well Mr. Canada, as usual I expect I will vote Tory by default, since the other choices are less to my liking. Still, when they "adopted" Fantino it REALLY shook my confidence in the present CPC values! Not just for how he handled Caledonia, although that was bad enough. Race based Law for political expediency, indeed. No, I had gotten a poor opinion of him for some of the messes he had been involved in even before that! If you take a superficial view his "tough on crime" attitude seems admirable but if you dig even slightly below the surface he obviously couldn't give a damn for people as individuals. Certainly, he doesn't see the law as something that should be applied equally to every citizen. He reminds me of that famous Viet Nam era general who was quoted as saying "In order to save the village it was necessary to destroy it!". 'Righteous' might be a good description. The kind of person who if he thinks it a good idea would cut off SOMEONE ELSE'S arm!

Hey Vineon, you're the one calling for Quebec to separate. If it happens, it will be your problem and not mine as to how to make it work! YOU will be the "lobsters in a pot", not me! I would be perfectly willing to see theories tested in reality. I'm a "Utilitarian", after all. If it works out for you I could not argue you made a wrong choice. If it didn't work out I would shed a small tear for some of my Quebecois friends and their families but still on the whole, if Quebec made its bed then it would have to lie in it! If it turned out lumpy...oh well! As long as I can still import the odd Bras D'or ou Chamblis bier I would treat it as an academic experiment, where the results would not likely hurt ME!

Cpl, it seems you are unaware that Quebec already has its own embassies! They don't call them that, of course. They are called immigration offices or trade missions or whatever. Still, they are institutions in foreign countries representing only Quebec's interests. No other province is allowed to do the same! Also, a Quebec passport is a non-issue. Any country can have a passport. Even the Duchy of Grand Fenwick. I wouldn't bother quoting dollars and cents to a separatiste, if I were you. You're wasting their time. They are "heart" people, not "head" people. They don't think in terms of dollars and cents. They take that for granted, believing that it will be fine. They have a dream! When Vineon says that Quebec pays its own way with federal taxes, he believes that because of emotion and pride. Nothing you can show him will change his mind. If after Quebec separated they experienced economic hardship, separatistes would simply brand it an unforeseen, unlucky event caused by TROC! They would ignore any connection with the result of going it alone. It's a religion, Cpl! A faith, if you like. At the higher political levels, separatiste politicians have always known that in the short run Quebecers would suffer tremendous hardships. Since their own asses will be covered, they think it's worth it! They will be quite comfortable themselves. It's always easy to have someone ELSE suffer for your dream! Remember how during that separation vote such questions were asked of Parizeau and he just smiled and said that if the vote went 'yes' Quebecers would be like "lobsters in a pot". By this he meant that they would be committed and unable to change their fate. So as I said, save your breath. If Quebec separates it will be her choice - and her consequences! TROC taxpayers will get a break. The Quebec dairy industry will likely be decimated, due to losing all exports to TROC to the Americans, who can provide the products MUCH cheaper! TROC will pick up most of the jobs that Quebec loses, as companies pull out and re-locate. Some of the firsts will be the banks, as there is no way they will want to have their headquarters in a foreign country. Things would likely be similar to the Czechoslovakian breakup. The Czechs have economically done very well. The Slovaks are forced to survive on their newfound national pride.

Not to mention how he withheld the protection of the Law from the citizens of Caledonia...for political expediency.

Does that matter? Nobody in Ontario cares where he is! They are not going to suddenly forget their feelings for the NDP just because Rae went to the Liberals! Rae had a whole team of ninnies like Pink Floyd, his finance minister and Ruth Grier, who banned incineration of waste for being too dirty and refused to look at any modern incinerator that was clean! As I said, it's not a head thing but a gut thing! You could argue till the cows come home and no one is going to change their mind. It would be like trying to get them to like Mulroney! Mulroney did some good things but no one cares. Everyone thinks only of the bad. It's similar to how the Liberal NEP poisoned westerners against them for generations. When you lose your job, your home and lord knows what else it tends to piss you off for years and years and years! Ontarioans HURT badly while Rae and his NDP were in power! Afterwards Ontarioans weren't inclined to chew over the political ramifications like a bunch of academics. They simply were angry! Large numbers still are!