Wild Bill

I'm always surprised by how many quote the United Nations as some kind of "world government" with power over all countries. It's not, of course. It's simply a forum where member countries can debate their interaction. What's more, some seem to feel it has some kind of moral authority. That is flatly ridiculous! When the UN Human Rights Tribunal is headed by countries like Libya and regularly blame Israel for everything up to and including tsunamis any idea of moral authority is a joke. Even UNICEF fell to scandal, with the fellow in charge caught with his hand in the cookie jar. All those pennies I collected every Halloween. What a sap I was! From my POV, I wouldn't cite the UN in this argument. It hurts your side more than helps.

Quite true. My career was in the electronic parts industry and I and my peer group watched the whole process over nearly two decades. The glory years for Nortel were the early 80's. They made a HUGE number of phones and telephone equipment, mostly in Kanata, Ontario and also in metro Toronto. Then, in the early 90's, Chretien and the Liberals began to beat a 'trade with China' drum. Nortel was involved. The idea was that since China was a country that at the time had zillions of people and only a primitive telephone network it was a golden market opportunity for trade between our countries. Now the ordinary citizen reading this over his morning paper assumed this mean that Nortel would be selling a BIG number of phones to China. This would be a great trade deal for Canada! However, it wasn't quite like that. The Chinese weren't stupid. They insisted that Nortel set up factories in China so they could make their own phones. Nortel would be paid to do so, of course. They would still be a partner in the factories. However, this meant no new phone market for Kanata and Mississauga. A couple of years later, production IN CANADA for Nortel phones began to wind down. They were sourcing them from the Chinese factories. A lot of Canadian manufacturing jobs disappeared. It probably wasn't some political conspiracy, where Chretien traded Canadian jobs for diplomatic glamour in trading with China. Rather, it seemed that no one really knew what was going on or why it happened! As suppliers we noticed that there was no point to supporting Nortel's engineers with samples and data sheets on whizbang new electronic parts. Why would we when we were shut out of any production volume orders? All Nortel's parts were being bought in China from far East suppliers. We no longer had any opportunity for payback!. So engineering began to move to China. There was still a bit left in Canada but nothing like before. Yet Nortel seemed totally blindsided by the loss of supplier support. This is why we thought it unplanned. It was such an obvious thing that if Nortel had known what it was doing they would have done a better job at compensating for it. At one time Nortel in Canada was so huge that it bought perhaps a solid third of ALL electronic parts in Canada. Around the time of 9/11 that had totally dried up. The impact on the supply industry was enormous. Companies that had been around for decades began layoffs and then folding up. I hit the street, along with literally thousands of others just like me. If a job opening was announced somewhere there was over 500 people applying! If you were over 50 like me it was next to impossible to get hired in a different line of work. That's what pushed me into starting my own business. Nortel wasn't the only hit to that industry. Much of the other contract volume manufacturing was also moved out of Canada. Some went to China for the cheap yuan and the labour. Others went to Ireland, where there was lower business taxes and perhaps even more important, far less government red tape to inflate your overhead with employees to handle it. It appears the changes to that industry are permanent. There are still a few big players left, like Research in Motion in Kitchener/Waterloo, Ontario. They're here for a number of reasons, with patriotism perhaps being one of them. Still, they are feeling enormous competitive pressures from countries like China. It's really not just the difference in labour costs. In that industry the number of automated robot production lines swamps that out. It's political factors like dollar difference, government red tape and perhaps the biggest, a total absence of anti-pollution costs to manufacturing in China. Many of us have never understood why our governments allow this disparity. How is it truly free trade when our competitor hasn't got the extra anti-pollution costs that we have in Canada? Should there not be some kind of equalizing tariff or duty? We're not talking trivial amounts here. The difference is considerable. Yet we've never heard anyone in Ottawa even acknowledge the problem exists, let alone attempt to deal with it. Look for more big names to go under, in the near future.

You've put your finger on it! The operative word is 'presence'! It doesn't have to be a military presence, although that would help and could also serve dual duty with search and rescue operations. Still, it has to be a real and substantial presence before our claim could have any hope of being diplomatically recognized. We don't have to fight Uncle Sam but it would help if we had a few real ports with REAL icebreakers of more than "summer weight" in the Arctic.

Well, I went to their site and sure enough, it's another of those pseudo-scientific sites mixing physics with Egyptian pyramids. They list a "Horizon Team" icon but when you click on it you have to pay attention because suddenly what you were told was a list of their team becomes a list of names they actually consider sources! They start with Einstein and Heisenberg, who of course were dead long before the Horizon Project got started. If you read enough of their site and you have even a modest scientific education you will quickly see that they are long on supposition and short on any direct and conclusive evidence. The basic concept is nearly a century old, at least. It has never gained serious credibility. These people all seem to operate on what I call the "WatchTower" 'scientific' argument. Years ago I read through a stack of WatchTower magazines. Every issue had what was touted as a scientific article and since I was a science kid I read every one of them, until I finally figured out what they were doing. No matter what the scientific point of the article, the argument always followed the same steps. For instance, it might start by stating that the Moon goes around the Earth. Most folks know that and of course they would nod their head. Then they would say that the Earth in turn orbits the Sun and again readers would agree. The argument would keep stepping through common knowledge, with the Sun orbiting in the Milky Way galaxy and that galaxy itself had its own orbit in a huge galactic cluster. At every step the reader would be nodding until eventually the article would get beyond the scope of a typical layman. At that point, when he was conditioned to keep nodding, they would come out with a total non sequitur like "Therefore, Jesus Christ is our personal saviour!" Now, for a kid really interested in science it wasn't hard to figure out their trick but sadly, for many people the trick works just Jim Dandy! Hitting people with so much simple stuff that they agree with establishes a pattern of agreement. When it goes above their knowledge if you've captured their confidence they will keep nodding. What I read at the Horizon Project site reminded me of those magazines.

It's funny how whenever someone talks about how a group should stay together the idea always seems to come from those favoured by the status quo. This wouldn't be so bad if at the same time the complaints of those unhappy were at least being examined for validity and perhaps even some redress, instead of being simply ignored as unsubstantiated 'grumbling'. I would submit that the Liberal Party has ignored western Canada for generations. It paid political dividends in votes in some areas of the country but there was a price paid in others. Part of that price was a loss of a sense of participation and federal unity. This has grown so acute that it might take generations before the Liberal Party could ever again be successful in the West. Certainly it would take a great deal of time and effort to make any sort of headway. For this reason, the Liberals are very unlikely to even make an effort. They have more immediate challenges and know from years of experience that if they can stay strong in Quebec, Ontario, the Maritimes and perhaps B.C they can form majority governments. Beyond that they have no need to care! I can't see the Liberals ever becoming champions of the West for at least a few decades, maybe longer. it's just cold hearted games theory.

I agree. Pretty much all the subsidization of the arts is totally wasted as regards my own tastes, at least in music. I nearly sprain my finger hitting the remote button to skip past the likes of Ben Mulroney and George 'Snuffleupagus'. The entire Canadian content program from the CRTC has never fulfilled its official mandate of promoting Canadian artists by ensuring they get airplay. Instead, stations fill up their CanCon with the same old tired cuts of Rush and Kim Mitchell, with the lite stations playing Rita MacNeil and Anne Murray. They NEVER play a new artist! New artists are left to drift on their own. Only after they reach a certain level do any subsidies kick in. Its a game of 'who you know' and its all about the transient pop music world. Canadian music artists largely succeeded on their own and the scene is no different today. Try talking to Burton Cummings of the Guess Who or better yet, Bryan Adams about how much CanCon actually helped their careers! It's just the same old brokerage politics applied to the arts & culture area. Lots of cash for multicultural artists of niche-market ethnic persuasions, like Lutonian Cheese Dancers or whatever. Buys votes for acts that very few actually care about. I would get more enjoyment for my tax money watching them burn the money! I like fires, particularly in the wintertime. Maybe I could get a grant to buy me a bottle of Drambuie to sip on while I watch.

Oh, he doesn't bother me. I've had him on 'ignore' for months. He's like the Toronto Star. Every page says the same thing: 'Liberals good! Everybody else is bad!" There's no point in buying that paper after a while, even if you're a Liberal supporter yourself. CR takes the same stance with aboriginals. I swear he'd excuse Charles Manson or Richard Ing if they were aboriginals! When someone is so partisan they go beyond the bounds of reality I just don't give them any attention anymore.

Just wondering what happened to the thread in 'Politics-Provincial' about Caledonia. It appears to have been totally deleted.

Yeah, I guess you're right. We should stick to being hewers of wood and drawers of water. Our peer countries should be other third world resource economies. We should know better than to ever even think of becoming a world leader in something high tech like aerospace or whatever! We're just Canadians, after all. We should sit around reading "Luddite News" and wait for the cod to come back. Sorry I brought it up.

If someone killed my daughters by firing random rocket attacks at my town, I would support any and all retaliation, up to and including nuclear! There is no excuse for randomly targeting innocents. Israel kills civilians that get in the way. Hamas makes citizens their primary target. To me, that is quite clear and more than enough reason for me to despise them!

Perhaps you are not seeing the entire picture. Even if we grant for the sake of argument that no one wanted the Arrow (which doesn't fit the facts but as I said, for the sake of argument) that was not all that Dief's party canceled They destroyed our entire chance of becoming a major player in that industry! We had won world interest and respect. We had produced the world's first jet airliner. Airlines were clamouring for it. Howard Hughes took personal possession of the prototype and put money on the table for orders. A V Roe was forced by the then Liberal government to turn orders down. They wanted production capacity allocated to a Canadian jet fighter. Then they canceled the orders for the fighter. If you could produce an Arrow you could produce airplanes for any other application. When your company not only took a hit but was hammered into the ground you couldn't produce a box kite! Dief's government had the option of changing the numbers on the order. Or giving a new one for a different jet. Or anything that could have at least kept the company alive. That's what a rational observer would have suspected. How many countries in the world would have let things go that far and then completely kill an industry? We were left with a few branch plants of the Americans. It was a perfect storm of negative factors, but the real tragedy was not just canceling the Arrow. We had shown that we could compete with the big players and then we wussed out in lame-ass fashion. The expertise that developed the Arrow could have given us other planes or if we didn't want to support a domestic industry we could have swung royalty/leasing deals with the US, Britain or France, making our money on the engineering. We are Canadian! We sell what we grow or what we dig out of the ground! Just like every other third world country, I guess. We now compete with our natural resources and buy them back as finished goods from other countries. We have a few auto branch plants and a lot of warehouses for goods imported from those other countries. Even Spar Aerospace and the Canadarm has been sold. Leave us alone as we brag about the Arrow. What the hell else have we got today to brag about? We sell nice logs or pretty barrels of oil?

Because of the obvious political spin to justify the decision it requires reading more than one book or watching one documentary (has the CBC ever had an ACCURATE documentary?). I've read a lot of them over the years. I also had the pleasure of conversation with people who had worked in engineering and purchasing on the Arrow project, giving an insider's view. There always seems to be a blurring of the reasons to cancel the project that cover up the incredibly strange action of destroying everything about it! It would not have cost much to keep at least one plane. Certainly the drawings and engineering papers. The government was within it's rights to cancel the project but the hatchet job looked like something done by Chucky from the slasher movie 'Child's Play'. The best explanation for the cancellation I ever read was that it really was the fault of A V Roe company themselves. They had made little or no effort to keep the Tory opposition in the loop. When Dief won his election instead of immediately asking for a briefing session to educate his people on the situation they sat back in their offices taking it for granted that Dief would only be in power a short blip of time anyway and then the Natural Governing Party would be back. So while it may have been ignorance on the Tory's part about how drastic a step would be canceling the project and putting 25,000 people out of work on one day (is this not an obvious political mistake? There are people alive in Ontario today who still won't vote Tory because of it! Perhaps it has a small effect on Harper's hopes for a majority. It was not only comparable if perhaps more spectacular than the effect of the NEP on Alberta) it was also arrogance on A V Roe's part to not properly promote their case with them. Plus ca change, if you ask me.

Be gentle! Those poor folks have a speech impediment. They can't pronounce "zed".

Actually, they were forced to TURN DOWN orders! First off, they had developed the world's first jet airliner. They intended to use sales of this aircraft to bootstrap them into the military contracts. Howard Hughes took it as his personal plane and offered orders repeatedly. The Canadian government insisted that Avro allocate their production capability to their contracts. Eventually of course, the new Conservative government cancelled those contracts, leaving Avro with nothing. The Americans and British both offered contracts and our government forbid Roe to accept them. The same countries then offered to purchase the engineering libraries and the prototypes, along with the Iroquois engine which was almost ready for delivery. That was forbidden as well. The rumours were that Dief's government had been naive and unaware about just how big a hit to jobs cancelling the Arrow was going to be. There is a documented quote from one staffer in Dief's PMO who phoned Avro to ask why the huge layoffs. When told that they had been left with no orders at all the question became "Couldn't you just retool and make tractors or something?" No, when the Tories realized the size of issue they decided to bury it! The last thing they wanted was for another country to become successful with anything that was a result of the Arrow project. It would have been even more embarrassing. The prototypes were cut up, the libraries were burnt and the spin doctors were paid overtime to spread the story that the fighter was too expensive and never would have worked anyway! When the Americans heard that they couldn't even buy the engineering work they decided that the Canadian government must either be crazy or a bunch of farmers! Some suspected they were both. Still, they quickly seized the opportunity to send employment scouts after all those laid off engineering and technical personnel. They formed quite a contingent for what eventually became NASA and were valued players in eventually putting Americans on the moon. Most stayed in the US and became citizens. One couldn't blame them, considering Canada had made it perfectly obvious how much they valued them.

Why, it seems so obvious I can't understand why everyone doesn't see it! Proportionality! This all started because Hamas kept firing rockets at random into Israel. So, Israel should just fire an equal number of random rockets back! If a Hamas rocket falls into a bedroom and kills a baby, then Israel should limit their retaliation to killing just one Gaza baby! If a Hamas rocket falls into a schoolyard and kills a half dozen school children then Israel should target a Gaza school and select ONLY 6 Gaza children, of the same sexes and ages, and kill them! Ridiculous? Of course! Enough of this 'proportionality' and 'Israeli over-reaction' talk. It's just a red herring to allow Hamas to kill with impunity. Same old, same old 'unilateral disarmament' talk.

Ah Michael, you miss my point! I would never state that Reform was perfection. After all, it was a POLITICAL party! It suited my values more than it disagreed but of course there were a few rough edges and a few players of poor character. I'm simply saying that virtually the entire Reform Blue Book or party platform has been purged from the new party, to the point where nothing of it is ever to be mentioned! Perhaps if we chewed over it long enough we might find one plank that's still there but I don't believe we'd come up with three! Manning's dream died. No one in the new party cared to nourish it. It's not only gone but it is forever to be unmentioned. That leaves iconoclasts like me with nothing to get excited about! Those were all the things most important to me politically. It leaves me with the CPC only by default. I keep dreaming that before I die I might get another truly attractive choice. Somehow I doubt if the CPC or even the opposition parties would ever want that to happen. When you study marketing deep enough you realize that you don't necessarily have to present the most attractive choice to your market. If somehow you can rig the market so that there is no truly attractive choice and leave yourself the least of all evils then that would work just as well and likely be more profitable for yourself.

Echoes of Preston Manning! One of the key planks in the Reform platform was for every vote except for critical ones like budgets to be free votes! MP's were to be expected to represent their constituents views to Ottawa, rather than just bringing Ottawa's views back to them. They had some work to do on how an MP was expected to get a reasonably accurate poll of his riding's wishes but the intent was laudable. Of course, the new CPC couldn't fire that idea down the Orwellian 'memory hole' fast enough! Another reason why I say that despite the numbers it appears that the old PC's took over the larger Reform/Alliance Party and turned it into a clone of the Tory party of Mulroney's day. Still, what an inspiring idea! It would make an incredible change in our democracy to eliminate all the knee-jerk party solidarity. Might actually make more Canadians feel like they actually are part of the process. The numbers of those who vote might actually rise! "People say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one." Once again, I'm at a total loss to explain why Manning ever bothered.

Your view differs quite from what I've read over the years, and I've read a LOT about the Arrow! As a matter of interest, here's one of a zillion sites brought up with a quick google; http://www.avro-arrow.org/Arrow/written_history.html If you poke around, you'll quickly see that the problem with production numbers came from a new government that almost immediately cut their order when things were already a long way down the pipe. Can't blame a production forecaster for that. Anyhow, this site has some good history and perspective. I know it can be bad form sometimes to confuse an issue with facts but I just get tired of all the assumptions people pull out of their butts.

How do you expect such "at the top" transparency to come about? Where is the mechanism to enforce it? I'd like a pony for Christmas but I don't expect to get one! I would think that a conservative (a dictionary-defined conservative of course. Not simply someone on the political side that you don't like) would have a more practical method to make such come about. If it was a value prevalent and encouraged at the bottom of society it would eventually infuse all levels, making such behavior a cultural norm. Right now, I would think the only way you would have a hope of accomplishing such transparency is if a Superman flew in and FORCED it on politicians! Or do we merely need to get a law passed and scold them with it?

You've nailed it, RW! It's described best by Clarke's Law, which states that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. This leads to the situation described by these past few posts, in that people insufficiently educated in science and technology confuse it with magic. Magic can of course do ANYTHING! This is likely also a source for many of the technical conspiracy theories, like the 200 mpg carburetor kept from us by the oil companies. If you think of a problem in terms of magic then anybody's opinion is as valid as that of anyone else. Truth becomes a matter of consensus. A scientific challenge to your argument can be deflected by criticism of its motives, i.e. "You sir are a DENIER!" Worse yet, when dealing with someone who thinks of the Universe in terms of magic it is impossible to ever convince them of something with facts. They don't understand them so they blow right over them! You have to resort to tricks of confidence, which is the basis of politics.

Your words smack of a Monty Python skit! "Those folks in Western Canada seem to feel that we've treated them badly and want to leave the party! What should we do" "Beat them! Beat them severely! That will teach them!" Man, you'd make a great salesman! Dale Carnegie must be spinning in his grave.

You just don't seem to want to face the issue squarely so I will ask it of you as plainly as I can. What would you expect would happen if a majority of the people of a province voted passionately to separate and refused to obey a federal order denying them that ability? Would you expect the federal government to use force to stop them? Do you really believe we HAVE the military resources or the political will to stop them and force them to stay within confederation? You passionately state how you believe "the way things OUGHT to be!" but I don't see how that squares with the real world.

Your faith is touching. It reminds me of Nancy Reagan crying "Just say NO!" You at least seem to realize that Canada would have to send in our troops to enforce the legalities. What you don't seem to understand is that first of all, any government in Ottawa is not likely to want to start a civil war armed conflict and second, a lot of our troops are from Quebec! There are also no end of countries that would recognize an independent Quebec, like Cuba or Iran. After you've waved your law books at them and scolded them severely, just what do you think would happen?

You sir sound like you belong to one of the more evangelical churches. Your tone and attitude seems to be consistent with such. Your lack of good manners is the reason I cannot abide the company of most parishioners of such churches. I've been offended enough. I'm putting you on my 'ignore' list in the control panel. May you always receive what you give.

It is plainly marked in the lefthand corner of my every post that I'm from Stoney Creek, Ontario. Born in Ontario and except for a brief stint as a baby navy brat in the Maritimes I've always lived here. I relate to Alberta's complaints because I believe that if one is objective they simply make sense! I learned long ago as a salesman that you might be able to limit a market's choices for years but if they ever get a chance at an alternative they will drop you like a hot potato. This is what sparked the phenomenal growth of the Reform Party. This is also what breeds separatist feelings. If you have to force people to stay in your group then you've failed.