Accountability Now

I'm not really interested in discussing this with you as I have been around the bend and back only to discover that you don't really have objective truths but rather interpretations. Just as your reply shows: 1. "at may mean hunting, fishing, trapping, trading, etc., earning a living from the land, in modern interpretation." Again the modern interpretation part...thank you to the liberal courts. 2. "IBA's also include dispute resolution mechanisms, recognizing that impacts might arise that weren't anticipated." I hardly believe that road blockades were apart of the dispute resolution of the IBA!! Also...what impact has arisen that has caused this? The only claim they have is that these people have not been paid enough. They shouldn't be talking with De Beers....they should be talking with the band who accepted the deal.

The treaties say the Crown and its successors. Government of Canada being its successor in this case.

What events? The British came, as did the French, as did the Americans (and the Spanish weren't to far off). After the war of 1812 the natives realized that 'we' weren't going away and it was in 'their' best interests to sign the treaties. In fact, they really didn't have a choice in signing them because it was either deal with the American or the Brits...and we all know how the Americans have and still treat their natives. These treaties are events unto themselves and are very objective in their wording. So what events are you talking about? Specifically the ones that show it is still native land?

Shortlived....are you not aware of (or do you just refuse to acknowledge) the number of treaties made by the FN to cede and surrender all their land to the British? These documents are available for you to look at online if you haven't read them.

I guess you are forgetting about the billion dollars that went into building the mine? Was Attawpaiskat going to put up that money to take the risk to mine? You are also forgetting about the Impact Agreement deal that was made and agreed to by 85% of the band? You are also forgetting about the millions of dollars transferred to the band for compensation for a deal that was made in good faith. Any ammendments made to this deal will truly prove that the Attawapiskat people are acting in bad faith. I have chosen my words very carefully to not say the FN people as this would be an Attawipiskat issue. However, it will no doubt reflect poorly on other FN bands trying to fairly negotiate their claims. Please read the James Bay treaty where the Attawapiskat elders signed away their rights and title to the said land. You are making a false claim that really has nothing to do with the current issue. The fact is that the band agreed to let De Beers enter their land and invest a billion dollars to set up shop. If they didn't want De Beers there then they could have shot them down at the table. Again...are you not aware of the agreement that was made? There is nothing sneaky going on here. De Beers was upfront and negotiated their way onsite only to have the band renege on their end. I've asked this before and have never received an answer....what if De Beers would have lost money on this mining project? Would Attawapiskat be there to chip in? After all they want to be partners in the deal. The rest of your arguement just seems to be random points. Some of which I agree with but others I don't

Shh waldo....he can't hurt you anymore. It will be alright!

Wow...do I ever hear you on this one!

Hardly...I said I'm done with you because there is nothing anyone can do for you. I will walk away victorious but don't worry....you can tell your chat room buddies how you slayed that mean guy in MLW today.

Wow...who's the insecure one now. Were you writing these on a list to bring to your therapist? Its ok waldo....he can't hurt you anymore. LMFAO!!! Man you are something else. You claim that you are above insults but everyone else sees the BS that you spew time in and time out. You can dish it but run to mommy when its time to take it. Don't worry waldo....you are the coolest of your chat room buddies. I have zero difficulty with being challenged. A number of people in this forum have challenged me and we have had a good trade of insights. Other people like TimG, bush_cheney, canuckistani and Michael Hardner have bettered me on certain arguements and I learned from it. You even admitted that you came into this thread weary of other Solyndra threads. You had your mind made up before you even started and all it took was saying Solyndra. So where is the openess to be challenged on your end? Can't be challenged with your head in the sand. Move on waldo. I'm done with you.

Oh no!!! LMFAO! You have three other members on here calling you out for your actions...how far do you think reporting will get you?

Ah...a clear voice on the matter. Thank you Moonbox. My faith in the forum may yet be returned.

Thanks for your sincere apology. Lol. I regret to say the issue here has little to do with the American DOE program, rather it has everything to do with your friend waldo not willing to realize he's been beat. Objective numbers mean nothing to him. You've dealt with him in the past...do you find the same type of thing?

Nope...don't need a break. This is just too much fun getting the upper edge on poor old waldo. I find your inability to see the objective truth to be quite funny for me (scary for you). Don't worry....you can go home tonight and tell your chat room friends about how cool you are. Have fun with your head in the sand!

Accuracy and Reality? Your so called accuracy and reality with trying to pass off green energy as green ecomony is proof that you live in an alternate reality. I didn't even have to lean on any of my own citations....I could use the ones you provided to prove how idiotic your arguments are. Politicization? I said Solyndra was a failure. I never went any further than to state that much. It was your bunched up panties that made you rant and rave about the DOE program only to admit later that I was right about the failure of Solyndra. As far as the DOE Loan program....I even posted an article stating "Solyndra Stunk. The Green Stimulus Didn't". What don't you get about this? We use letters to make words. Words make sentences. Do you need more help understanding it? You state that you have dealt with the Solyndra thing in past threads and it shows. You came into this arguement with preconcieved notions without even listenting to what I would say. Again...head in the sand. Quietly shifted away. No sir...that is you that quietly shifts away. Other posters have commented on this so don't accuse me of being alone on that comment. We were discussing green energy versus oil and you wanted to get sidetracked because you knew you weren't going to win that one. You never did go on to read Aldy's paper which was cited in that article....did you? It went on to explain a number of things that he would change about the program. Again....the guy who was involved in crafting the program is now saying that improvements can be made and waldo throws it out the window because he has two indpendent studies that tell him everything HE wants to hear. You really have a tough time with criticism....don't you? As stated above.... the article I posted was "Solyndra Stunk. The Green Stimulus Didn't". How much MORE clear does it need to get. Should send someone over to your parent's basement and have them read these posts for you? Again green econonmy?????? We were discussing green ENERGY!!! The embarrassment here lies completely on your side. Its obvious now that you aren't trying to argue your point anymore rather you are just trying to waste time. Things a little slow with your government job these days? Insecure? Oh boy....its pretty tough being insecure when you win. Not just in an online forum either! Ironic that you post this claim about being an anonymous poster....that is you to a tee. Its obvious by your demeanour that you don't deal with people very often or at all. You most likely stick it out in your cubicle at your goverment post and then hide back in your parents basement at night trolling the internet thinking of ways to try and look smart. Keep trying because it hasn't worked so far.

Sorry Waldo....winning is just something I do. You should try it sometime. As Tim G said..CLASSIC WALDO. You have deviated so much from the arguement that you don't even know what you are saying anymore. Let me remind you of how this has gone down: - I initiated by commenting the government didn't want to bet on losing horses citiing Solyndra as an example. You got your panties in a bunch and ranted and raved about Solyndra. After a few threads, you fully admitted that Solyndra was a failure. FAIL! - We then moved into talking about other green energy programs. We agreed that the other programs did quite well on the goverment loans but we disagreed when discsussing the impact of the oil/gas versus green energy jobs. You tried tying in all sorts of non-related environmental jobs to try and help your green energy arguement but alas FAILED again.By only using the Brookings Study I was able to show that oil/gas employs 2.4M directly where as the green energy system merely employs 138,000. EPIC FAIL!!! - Now you are trying to educated me one what green econonmy or green goods are? I know what they are. I have been pointing them out to you like the 300k that work in Waste Treatment or the 300k that work in Conservation. Our arguement had NOTHING to do with these industries however you keep trying to use them only to pad your numbers. Should I add the auto industry because cars run on gas? Oh wait....the Public Transit system could give us some numbers too as alot of buses run on gas too. I suppose I could add any business that uses natural gas for heating. Man...my numbers are HUGE now. Another EPIC FAIL by waldo. Yikes... You consistently try to change the arguement once you realize that you are wrong and have been clearly handed your lunch. However, most people here are smart enough to see right through your charade. So if you want to save anyone any embarassment, it should be you by putting your tail between your legs and waddling away.

Lol.

Lol. Your right....we should let them just walk away. I mean..if I held up a bank and took people hostage for an hour and then voluntarily gave myself up....they woudn't press charges. Right?

Voluntarily complied? I assume this is going to help them in their court case considering the judge is forced to take their aboriginal descent into account.

You didn't finish reading the article did you? Table 4 illustrates the direct impact jobs which is 2.2M however table 6 shows the diirect and indirect jobs which is the 9.2M. Tsk tsk Waldo....I'm starting to think that you know you have lost this arguement. Do you know the difference between DIRECT AND INDIRECT? According to the Brookings Study Table 1, the number of DIRECT jobs from green ENERGY are 138,364. Compare that to DIRECT jobs from oil/gas ENERGY....2.2M in API and 2.4M in Brookings. Hmmmmmmm....is that a 16X difference???? I don't want you to hurt your brain....the answer is yes. Now....we can't even compare the indirect impacts because Brookings doesn't show that for either. For the green ECONOMY...they add 2.5M jobs from other industries that have NOTHING to do with green ENERGY. Lets see...there is 314,983 for Conservation, 350,547 for Public Mass Transit, 386,116 for Waste Management and Treatment. ALL of these sectors have existed, would exist and will exist with or without green ENERGY. Ironically, any one of those categories alone provides more than double the jobs in green energy. Talk about ridiing coat taiis! Feel like making an assumption? The direct jobs in oil/gas are 2.2M and the indirect are 9.2 which is about 4X. Lets assume the same ratio would apply to green energy (even though it wouldn't). With 138,364 direct jobs that would mean there would be 578,613 indirect jobs. Hmmmm....even the indirect number for green energy doesn't come close to the direct number for oil/gas. It appears accuracy does count. Direct green energy jobs....138,364. Direct oil/gas....2.2M. As you so elegently put it...chew on that.

The only thing De Beers should be doing is looking at pressing charges.

My point is that if no one is appealing it then the decision made by the lower court stands and the police should be doing something to remove these people. It's just another sign of two tier justice.

Are they planning on appealing this? How long do they have before filing an appeal? At some point the court order needs to be acted on if no appeal is placed.

It sounds like the family or families that are blocking the mine have a personal grievance with De Beers saying that they have not been compensated with enough money for their traplines and for the fact the mine is so close to a burial site of their ancestors. According to an APTN report, the protestors seem to be freelancers — locals from Attawapiskat who are upset with De Beers for “a number of grievances ranging from personal, past employment and pay issues with De Beers, to the lack of housing in the community, the need for compensation over the loss of traditional traplines and burial sites along with overarching environmental issues.” http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/02/21/jonathan-kay-natives-hurting-themselves-with-lawless-blockade-of-de-beers-mine/ The bottom line is that De Beers made an agreement with Attawapiskat where 85% of the band ratified the agreement. Now...some of the people are saying they didn't get enough. That is BS.

We used them the first time but I found they were costly. Now our accounting firm does it for us a little to no cost.

The 9.2 million comes from the Pricewaterhouse Coopers study via the API. http://www.scribd.com/doc/54535552/The-Economic-Impacts-of-the-Oil-and-Natural-Gas-Industry-on-the-U-S-Economy-in-2009 The API is the only group thus far to actually estimate the OVERALL impact of the oil and gas industry. Why? Because this would be a costly study which yes...they can afford. Even in your Brookings study they explain that doing such studies it would be too costly for them (Pg 15). No one at this point has gone to the extent to show their own proof, rather they take pot shots at the API/ PWC study by saying the same thing you did...."You can't use gas station attendents?". The last time I checked....a job is a job. I know its your liberal belief that we should all be making six figure salaries however that just isn't realistic. There are a million sites out there that all give their take on the API study but no one has actually stepped up and done a study of their own which encompasses the true market. Brookings study tries to do this...but they are measuring the Clean Ecomony....not just Clean Energy. Apples to Apples Waldo. Even the Brookings study doesn't use the Department of Labor's Bureau so why should I? Again...read PG 15 of the Brooking Study where they say: "The studies reviewed showed that neither of the standard classification systems used in the BLS data, the North American Industry Classifi cation System (NAICS) or the Standard Occupational Classifi cation (SOC), identifi es a green or environmental grouping of industries or occupations.” So a new approach was taken using DUNS and NETS. Come on...read your own study! Besides, the BLS breaks everything down based on job...not industry. They have seperate categories for Accountants. Do you not think oil companies have accountants? Do you not think accounting firms like PWC make money off annual financial statements? Classification is KEY. Which is why your Brookings study fails. It over classifies and adds everything under the sun just to get numbers. However, this same study states there are 2.4 Million jobs DIRECTLY related to Oil and Gas. This number so conveniently misses out on fuel dealers, petroleum wholesalers OR as you like to put it the millions of people like Apu at the Kwik E Mart. They chose NOT to classify something that SHOULD be. Again...last time I checked a job is a job. The guy at the gas station isn't pumping solar energy....he's pumping gas. How is that not related? Wow....slow indeed. The thing that you will never understand (probably because you work in some government institution and don't see the effects of real life) is that you can take ALL the numbers you want and throw them out the window because nothing is more indicative of how oil and gas affects a market then when there is a bust in the oilfield. We saw that in 2008 here in Alberta when the market slowed up. Welders, janitors, accountants, receptionists, service technicians, millwrights, truck drivers....YOU NAME IT....all out of work because the oil dried up for a year. All of the companies out there that distribute products, sell services, and do significant business with oil companies all go belly up or come close to it just because of the price of oil. When is the last time you've heard someone say....Man that solar panel industry is killing me! Or better yet....when you hear those whiners complaining about the Petro Dollar....I wonder why you never hear them talk about the Green Dollar? Keep you head in the sand Waldo....its much better there.