Michael Hardner

What does that mean ? You make it sound surprising that Canada would prosecute for slavery !

MD Post a link, or be quiet. I have challenged you in the past, only to receive no response at all. Put up the link.

Can't we increase the supply ? And, of course, the big question: Why don't Canadians demand access to data that they can use to get their own answers ? Why do we rely on unions, self-monitoring government agencies and obtuse media to give us no answers at all ?

S, Hmmmmm.... 1) It's not a democracy. True. 2) " it lacks legitimacy as a socially cohesive society" To create a cohesive society by engineering a monoculture is as unnatural as forcing a multicultural society where it absolutely won't work. Social engineering, as I learned from you, doesn't work. 3) "How it's governed has nothing to do with whether or not it has a moral right to decide who lives there." The question is whether this is a good policy. The reasons for immigration that you despise - the "can't we all get along" type reasons - aren't real reasons for immigration. They are only used to promote multiculturalism, and to allow immigration to continue. The real reasons for immigration seem to be chiefly economic, as both mainstream parties continue to shovel immigrants into Canada's economic engine. If those aren't the real reasons, then what is this great conspiracy that we're experiencing ? Why are all our national parties so misguided on this ? Is Stephen Harper really buying votes through immigration policy ? No. Basically, immigration happens in Canada for the same root reason as Bahrain - economics. The issue here is that Bahrain is not a democratic country, it's more like a vast walled estate that can let people in according to the whims of the Emir, or whoever runs it. Like the emperor of China who banned ocean-going vessels in the 15th century, he is closing himself off from the rest of the world, because he can. But as it seems to me, your opinions on the matter come from the fact that you don't like certain immigrants as a group, (I can pick out Chinese and Muslim right now, but I imagine that it changes) and that you resent the fact that dumbed-down multicult messages are used by all sides to push policies you disagree with. Both reasons are emotional reactions to issues that reside within you, rather than anything that is based on external evidence.

Jennie, Let's try to continue not to respond to MikeDavid until he gets some facts right, what do you say ? He seems to think that immigrants have a 100% unemployment rate can afford a $350,000 house.

S, But we did bring them here after WW2. Are you saying that it was a bad idea ? We also brought Czech, Austrian, Ukranian, Hungarians who collaborated with the Germans in ww2. Don't tell me you're against European immigration too ?

Here's me squeaking: this is a bad idea, and if it's actually exclusionary, then it's illegal. You're right - if this was overtly publicized as a subdvision for certain races, there would be an outcry.

S, Don't you think how it's governed is somehow related to what kind of society it is ? Do you yearn for a strongarm leader to purify Canada ? Explain yourself.

Scott, But he's not right. Bahrain is an oil kingdom, and is run as such. Do you really think that this is a good model for Canada to follow ?

Scott, You're correct when you point out that racial harmony will break down when society is faced with serious economic threats. I don't buy your 'tinderkeg of racial animosity in Vancouver', but I do think that we need to openly discuss, measure, and publicize attitudes towards race. If in fact there's a backlash happening, we need to moderate immigration levels. The conventional wisdom, however, is that immigration is good for the economy. The fact that our current and previous federal governments have had pretty much the same policies bears that out. From what I've read, Canada has the fastest population growth of the G8, and a healthy pro-business economy so we're currently as far from 1970s Britain as you can get.

Scott, Here's my question: where are you putting the blame - on the holy books or on the culture that follows Islam ? It seems to me you're blaming the culture, but you can't accept the consequences of taking that path: 1) Muslims from another culture would be free and clear, and not subject to your scorn 2) Western culture should have a moderating effect on Islamists. 3) Bringing them into Canada is a good thing, at least in the long term.

Scott: Here's your error: You're looking to explain reasons for violence in the religion by pointing to holy books as the cause. As you point out, other religions have holy books that contain violence too. So then where are you ? Lots of cultures that had different religions, or no religion at all have fostered violence. I suspect that what you really should be doing is starting with your own personal feelings of dislike for certain attributes, and working from there. If you state that you don't like ignorant people, people who blame others for their problems, what have you, then you will have a principle that, when applied, will snag people of all cultures in your net of dislike. I'm glad to hear that you don't hate individuals, though.

I think the point is that name-calling isn't productive, and doesn't lead to good discussion. As I stated in another thread, dealing with views that you see as racist is best done (on this board anyway) through rational discussion. We are taught that in polite society we should never bring such topics to light, but I believe that on boards like this it is important that we do so.

Moxie, that article is opinion only.

Moxie, It's much ado about nothing, isn't it ? If there wasn't a threat of Muslims blending in to Canadian society, then this man wouldn't have had to make these statements ? You're also misquoting what was said.

Tbud, I don't think you're being fair. It's a thankless job policing a web forum. I myself have successfully moderated several forums, (that included forums where I had to wrangle very pesky little rascals such as Morris D. and ScottSA) so I know whereof I speak. MapleLeaf does simply the best job at keeping a certain level of decorum, and yet still allows raucous discussion. It also has a pretty even balance of voices here. Have patience. If you don't have patience, then have a look around the web and you'll see that I am right.

Greg, I am absolutely thankful for MapleLeaf and respectful of your wishes to keep decorum around here. I do think the very idea of 'racism' - what it is, what our response should be, how to deal with it - is a very important topic today, and absolutely needs to be discussed on a board like this. I would like to be able to discuss such things openly without feeling like I'm calling someone a name, or have them feel that I'm name calling either. As such, I suggest that the current discussions continue, but removing our personal points of view on the topic. If another member, for example, believes in deporting all members of a certain religion, I will refer to that opinion only and not to the person who holds it. I hope this helps.

I hope it fails. The biggest failings of our system is that it is successful. Ontario is fat and happy, and as a result most people don't even get involved in the political process. The political parties are focussed on getting elected, and managing optics. As a result, we have none of the leaders inspiring any hope in the electorate. MMP doesn't solve any of this.

Argus, You're calling their views on women disgusting, not me. I'm not upset by closed minded people. Immigrants aren't going to be as Canadian as their children will be. The best thing about Canada is its youth. Where is this shrieking you speak of ? I'm calmly discussing this with you, as I have been all along. I haven't condemned you, either. I'm just trying to understand your argument. Your argument seems to be based on an idea that I'm upset. I can't believe you're making such an inaccurate and distasteful comparison. They want to come here ! Why do you think they despise our culture ? Where did you live ? I live in Toronto. Again, you close your argument by calling me a zealot, when just above you were saying that I engage in self-righteous condemnation. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Argus, you just have no argument. Your argument begins with describing me shrieking and pulling my hair out. You call me names, make a distasteful comparison to WW2 era Germany, and say that immigrants despise our culture. You have no argument whatsoever.

Say what you like about MikeDavid (I sure have...) but he's right to complain about the healthcare system. A co-worker of mine told me today that he has a 'friend' who can get him in line for MRIs. Lefty types and sort-of-lefty-types like me have spent the past 15 years talking about how our system is better than the American one, rather than lighting a fire under our politicians to fix things. The system is not getting better, and everybody needs to start getting very unhappy about that until something gets done. We're about to re-elect Dalton McGuinty who took office with ONE MILLION Ontarians not having a doctor, to deliver (today) ONE MILLION Ontarians without a doctor. Nobody should be satisfied with the state of affairs. If we don't want a market-based healthcare system, then that's fine, but we have to have one that works. Clearly, a politically based healthcare system doesn't work.

Arg, Excuse me ? You've posted to me 3 times without a reply from me. You're repeating yourself from a previous post. I already addressed this. And ? There's no source for what you have written, first of all. Secondly, people coming from other cultures are going to have some unpalatable ideas about gender, race, what have you. Are you saying that should be a basis for keeping people out of Canada ? Do you think Russian men have a progressive view towards women ? What about other cultures ? I don't like people who don't read my posts either. I have already said that racists don't stir me to emotional response, so no I wouldn't call the person filthy. Secondly, double our Muslim population every ten years might well be unreasonable. We're absorbing a lot of immigrants now, but I don't know what the numbers are. I would have to see them before commenting on your example. She hasn't made a logical judgement. From your example, she doesn't "like" the idea... based on who knows what. I live in the fastest growing G8 country population-wise, in the city that receives the most immigrants. We can sustain current levels, from what I have experienced. My experience tells me that most people who are anti-immigration have developed their stance out of fear, and don't actually live in areas where there is a lot of immigration. What we "fools" are trying to do is figure out why you folks are anti-Muslim, not anti-Afghani Musim or anti-Pakistani Muslim. Whenever we ask specific questions as to whether a certain Muslim might be an exception to your rule, we get the usual logical dance wherein you switch from the holy-books, to the culture as being the root cause. I agree that the attitudes that you despise come from the culture. That's all the more reason to westernize as much of the world as possible by allowing people who want to live in freedom, in Canada, to do so.

I stand corrected, thanks DoP.

MikeDavid - I don't think you meant to say that I posted that, did you ? Because I don't think I did. I'm not familiar with New Zealand's situation.

Vision, There is, though, a large middle ground that the Conservatives can inhabit - by loosening central power, and allowing more provincial control for example. Or by making some soft steps on 'accommodation' that appeal to the middle, such as making statements about the law and certain religions' treatment of women for example. Dion's big plus is the environment, and Harper needs to convince the middle that he's not a caveman in this respect. Once he's done that, he could be due for a breakthrough. And I'm not planning to vote for the guy, either.

Kuz, And as some have pointed out, Islam spans many cultures. I hate using the term xenophobia because a lot of people don't know what that means, and it's too long to type. (Emoticon.) Perhaps I'll just use the term 'bigotry'. And the ones who want to come here are fleeing the societies that are being criticized here as backwards, monotheistic, etc. They're not coming here to destroy Canada, but because they want a better life. There is always an adjustment process when society changes from immigration. These discussions are part of that process. I researched some racial and religious struggles in Ontario during the first part of the 20th century - these ones being between Irish, Dutch, Scottish, French, German and English immigrants of Presbyterian, English, Lutheran and Catholic faiths. Those struggles happened so long ago that we have forgotten about them. As such, Muslims seem so much 'different' to, say, Scottish Presbyterians that they might seem like aliens.