Michael Hardner

Argus, You must realize by now that this just isn't going to happen. Harper's government is looking to continue our economic growth, which means immigration will continue. There isn't much doubt of that, at least in the near term. And "it is more difficult to assimilate Muslims" than - who ? The 'sending the children home for a proper wife' story was floated on here once, as I remember, and found to be another falsehood. It was, as I recall, based on a magazine story that (intentionally ?) misprinted a statistic to seem that this was happening in a significant number of cases. The hard-left types will argue that the Christian right is continuously growing in power and size, and that they're REALLY REALLY SCARY. Exactly like the anti-Muslims on this board. The world has changed. There's no reason to think that Muslims won't integrate. My best advice is get used to it.

Wow. We need to all be on the same side. That means forced conversions. Now THAT is quite conservative ! Which Christian sect should all Canadians be baptized into before we start the next crusades ? Do you think that Harper should suspend elections before suspending the constitution or not ? It seems to me, "Mister" Canada that you don't really like anything about Canada.

Mr Canada, These simple slogans - "secularism is the new communism" - are just stupid. This isn't the fashion world or People magazine. You're just posting general anti-liberal rants and trying to make it into something substantial. Did a public figure say something ? Did a politician propose some new legislation ? Do you have a opinion that you have thought carefully about ? If somebody points out a flaw in your logic, will you consider changing your argument or your opinion ? If so, I look forward to reading that. Post it and give us something to talk about.

jdobbin - Keep in mind that the 'who would you prefer as PM' polls aren't the same as 'who would you vote for polls'. The former type of poll tends to highlight the leaders' personalities, and frequently shows better results for NDP, Greens, etc.

Argus, That's exactly the point: what are the anti-Muslims on this board advocating ? You can't get them to answer that most of the time. Instead, we have to endure endless posts of faulty logic trying to 'prove' the evil of a certain religion. And, many hard leftists actually do think that they're threatened by the "growing" Christian right. My guess is that has more to say about the general paranoia of those with more extreme political views.

Arg, This is a simple question. Of course not.

The article puts too much emphasis on the actions of communist states. The Nazis weren't atheistic and were supported by Christians. Forced state atheism is as bad as having a state religion. The most humane states allow freedom of religion.

Hey Wulf, Sorry but this isn't evidence. I understand now what kind of argument you want to make. Let me explain: Posting a list of crimes done by Muslims doesn't prove that Islam causes people to be criminals any more than me posting a list of crimes by British people proves that Englishness causes crime. You've already pre-judged that the religion is the cause of the problem. Before we continue, we'll have to discuss what 'evidence' means.

TB, In order to assist you, I want to point out: It's not enough to provide statistics, but someone has to show that a religion causes bad behavior, independent of all cultural factors. If you only ask for statistics, the Islam haters out there will provide "evidence" of a bombing somewhere. That's not evidence, it's just an incident. A lot of people don't seem to understand their own biases. Murder, mass murder, and murder in the name of religion has been going on for awhile now. Just because it happened again last week somewhere, or even that there are more Islamist bombings than Christian bombings doesn't mean that we have 'evidence' against Islam.

MC, are you saying that the separation of church and state is a Soviet idea ?

Sorry, MC, but no go. "strives to to implement... the teachings of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and as understood in its contemporary context by the late Imam, Hassan Albanna" The CBC gave to the same charity as these people, who strive to implement teachings... by someone who founded a brotherhood... It's too contorted a relationship for you to set this up as the CBC plotting to be politically correct. There are real controversies out there. Go find one.

Oleg, Christianity had bloody wars that established the necessity of plurality - because there were different Christian sects within a small space - all with conflicting goals. I don't know that it opened up the minds of the adherents, but it established a way for them to co-exist. Wulf, It doesn't always come back to Muslims. Strange that you would think that. Why is that - do you think ?

Actually, Oleg, some of us have learned. Racial scapegoating can definitely lead to the conclusion that the race in question has to be eliminated. And Jerry - Our leaders rush to visit a mosque and apologize whenever a muslim kills innocents ? What ? Europe has had riots before. Again, you arrive at the argument with the reason for all of this already set in your mind.

Jerry, Well, what's the point of it ? People don't usually come on here pointing out things that are 'objectively bad'. Littering, double parking, mass murder... these are all 'bad' things that happen. But we don't usually post about them, mostly because there's not much to discuss about them. Exactly. So why do it ? The problem is being fixed by their emigration to the west where church and state can co-exist. I don't see a lot of emigration going the other way. Did you start out on this quest to rid the world of these evils and happen upon Islam as the cause ? Or was it more likely that you don't like Islam and need some reason to rationalize why ? There's your error - there isn't one common thread. If you were interested in the truth, then you'd want to talk about the real causes of ignorance instead of pinning them to a religion that you've prejudged as the cause.

Ok, Jerry, well saying one religion is worse than another - or all the others - is pitting religions against each other I think. And again, posting individual examples is useless. It's as useless as threads I see on other boards that talk about the hundreds of thousands or millions killed by Christianity all through history. All such arguments are really a way for the poster to rationalize an inherent dislike of certain people, in my opinion.

Sorry, MC, that seems to be an entirely different group. Is it ?

True, but some of them do. The sad thing is that no one seems interested in finding out just how many do.

WB, We don't condone culture in North America. We live according to our constitution and culture happens. This idea of a 'national culture' is as socialistic as the idea of an enforced 'multi-culture'. Let's just live, shall we ? There's no opponent, there's no debate, there's no taking advantage... Before the Conservatives got into power, I believed that there may eventually be some change to immigration policy in Canada (which seems to be the point of these endless 'culture' discussions on these boards) but now we can see that it won't be happening. So, the 'cultural' message from Harper and the rest of us to those who think there's still a debate: "Get used to it."

Sorry, Jerry, I don't know how to define a 'strong' culture, although I will say that you certainly seem to admire the strength of Islam. In a certain respect, though, Islamic clerics who don't want to admit a secular culture don't really show confidence about the faith of their adherents. Kind of like born-again Christians who want to ban the devil's music, they themselves seem to be threatened. Your penchant for quoting individual examples is a far cry from the kind of evidence that would be required (and, in fact, is almost impossible to furnish) to prove such an argument. I don't think so. Do you ? You seem to agree with that point of view. There was a great deal of difficult integrating all of the European cultures into one 'America', too. The fact that it happened so long ago makes it seem like the integration was easy. People should be able to 'pursue happiness', Jerry, not be told to 'adjust' or whatever you're implying that you will force religious folks to do.

Well, post it then. I went to the link that was posted and that's all there was. Sorry if I'm complacent and Canadian, folks, but if somebody told me that a right-wing Christian group had also given to the same charity I would be just as nonchalant about it. Yes, there are Muslims who don't believe in the separation of Church and state, as there are Christians who believe the same thing. It may be quite shocking to you, but I'm not in the least worried about, or affected by their beliefs in this regard.

Jerry, 1) What's wrong with pointing out the truth ? Nothing - as long as it's helpful. How often do you go to a party and interrupt the host in the middle of a story to tell her she has bad breath ? 2) There is a conflict in basic values between Islam and the "west". That depends on whether you're talking about Western Islam or not. 3) This conflict will grow over time. I completely disagree. I dont' see any reason why Muslims will adapt differently than any other religion. Give a specific example please. Again, specific example please.

Ole - the commonly quoted 'cut' figure from the Harris government was 20%, not 50%. The government can spend its money better than that, though. For example, they could spend it on getting these people to work and produce something valuable for the economy.

Ok... So you can see why pitting religion against religion is a dumb game ? I'm always arguing against leftists who are trying to say that Christianity is the worst force ever unleashed in history etc. etc. They want to compare the sheer numbers murdered, even if it was in the past. You see, Seinfeld, the framing of the argument is entirely subjective. The factors, as WildBill pointed out in another thread, are entirely cultural.

So CBC is giving to an anti-hunger charity that is also being supported by a Muslim organization that was founded by a guy who believes Muslims should have their own courts ? And the headling is 'CBC partners with Islam Extremists' ? Sorry, there's just no controversy here.

WBill, I don't know what the point of discussing the problems with other cultures would be - except maybe to make ourselves feel better.