Michael Hardner

Does anyone have a link to Dion's video ?

OK... so what part of 'Liberal, NDP, BQ supporters only' wasn't clear ?

Simple question to lifelong Liberal, NDP, BQ supporters: Do you support the coalition ? As someone who has never voted conservative, I don't support it. I think the timing for this action is terrible, that it destabilizes the government, and that the foundation is shaky at best. Against. *Note - I didn't make this a 'POLL' thread because I don't want anonymous responses here.

Thanks, mjp, for a breath of reality on online petitions.

Argus, I agree that Harper seems to call forward an undeserved stream of venom from those on the left. I am (nominally) centre-left and I don't understand it myself. The only thing I can see to compare to it is the venom that comes from the right against the left. You can see both flavours of irrational knee-jerk spittoon kickers all over this board. If we focus on the facts, eventually we'll come to see that the stereotypes don't exist, and the positions we hold need data to be defensible in an argument. As for this coalition government - I have never voted conservative. Not once. And I think this is a bad idea. I would be surprised if this move was popular.

If nothing else good comes out of this (and I'm betting on that) then at least some citizens might learn a little about our process, and that public anger, whatever the level, doesn't guarantee that the angered get their way.

My feeling, and that of several centre-left people I know is that this is a disunifying tactic and will do more harm than good.

Actually, given that Duceppe is politically a dead duck anyway, that could make great sense. Throw the corpse of Duceppe at Harper why not ? As long as Duceppe takes all the attention, and Rae and Ignatieff step out of the spotlight, they might draw some blood...

It's not that they want the status quo to carry on - it's that they want more for their region. That's how Reform got their toehold in the first place - by promising to push for something that has no prayer of succeeding. Who will give up power for the greater good ? David Peterson offered up some Ontario senate seats for Charlottetown but would Quebec do it ? Would Alberta ? Highly doubtful.

What does it mean to have liberty but not peace ? What's an example of that Iraq today ?

And the Conservatives have always known this. So why was EEE always a major selling point for Reform ? The answer may be that it was a cynical attempt to gain a foothold in western Canada. The same could be said by the Reform party grandstand of rising in parliament to say that they wouldn't accept pensions. Remember that ?

Although I don't like what Harper is doing, and would like to see lower limits - I do want to point out that Canada's general approach to election spending is eons ahead of where the US is now where hundreds of millions of dollars are spent (all of which are favours that need to be repaid) and that money is used on mass advertising and the dumbing down of the discussion.

Well said, Olech.

I can't imagine what the result would be, though ? Better data, that's understood. But ... then what ?

Really - this is a pointless discussion. You can't argue that native North Americans had better technology - it just isn't so. And arguing about the attendant social ills that the Europeans brought is fine, but those ills came from a technological society.

eb, the fact remains that these legislative changes were made publicly and without any stealth. No camera, hidden or visible, would have changed or improved the situation. There was no secrecy. Everything was done in the open, and the system failed all the same. The premise for these them of yours is that our society is being ruined by planned evil, but the fact is that we're ruined by everyone failing to do the little things.

eb - What you're proposing is akin to having a chaperone at an orgy. We have controls NOW. They are visible, public, and accessible. Nobody uses them. The powers that be steal from us in plain sight. Why in blazes do we need hidden cameras in such an environment ? You're right, of course. Actually, I never considered that. This means that without God threatening hellfire over us we've lost one of the system controls ? That's actually plausible. Ok... so let's bring back... religion ?

Yes, Olech. This is what the press is *supposed* to provide. But the press is a one-size-fits-all entertainment machine. CPAC is atomically dull and there's nothing else right now... If only MapleLeafWeb had power... Seriously, a serious website such as this with an honest and intelligent membership reminds me of some of the elements of the earliest American democracies. It would be interesting to see what kind of stewardship could be harnessed from these types of forums.

OB, Yes but it requires learned folks to read and analyze the data on our behalf. Politicians can no longer be trusted. The media supports only 0 attention span issues... We need a new institution.

EB, You're turning the tables on me. I've shown you that your idea of monitoring public officials more closely won't fix these problems. I would say that if we have complex issues that need to be monitored, we should have people monitoring those issues, and we should have the public listening to those people.

Eyeball, I have pointed this out to you several times: We don't need extra monitoring when our existing monitoring (i.e. the press and medai) is ignored by the voting public. This latest crisis is yet another example. Banking deregulations were well publicized and discussed. Your idea of extra electronic monitoring would not have helped.

Auguste, some comments: Quote 1: Thanks for being more specific. I think your viewpoint would be easier to understand if you use this level of specificity. We clearly have had some 'good' level of government intervention between 1987 until now. Let's not turn to the 'strong man' as you pointed out, but have a rational examination of what went wrong. The situation, to me, is analogous to looking at causes for engineering failures, such as the sinking of the Titanic. Quote 2: If we have a discussion along these lines, then that would be a good thing. Quote 3: Actually, the advent of markets (by way of barter) had a far less significant impact than that of central banking. From my readings in history, I remember that the invention of a centrally managed accounting system for trade had such an impact giant cities of 100,000 people were born almost overnight. ( Ancient Sumaria. ) Surpluses were given to a central office that equated goods with a value, and recorded trade on clay tablets. And the attendant corruption began almost immediately, with a new court of high priests and accountants required for 'managing' the central banking office.

Yet, Canada seems to have done quite well since 1867. Maybe those who do vote see the relationship between government and the general welfare of the people.

It strikes me that this discussion is about the nature of 'progress'. We use the word to describe forward motion, but also the changes (technological, social) that have happened to 'western' society over time. As such, the Europeans believed that they were more progressed - they themselves to be superior to the native cultures and that arrogance stays with us today. But we have seen that 'progress' doesn't mean that EVERY aspect of an industrial society is better than that of a hunter gather society. And, in fact, there may be elements of post-industrial society (such as is emerging now) that are more similar to tribal society than industrial society. So 'progress' doesn't mean that we move away from the past - sometimes it means re-adopting old ways. But it does mean that there's no turning back the clock I think if we recognize these facts, and realize that we're all born into a world that was created by our ancestors then it will help our cultures come to terms with our current situations, and will promote dialogue that makes our collective progress easier.

Yes, definitely the same type of person. It's a cottage industry with a clientele of misfits. I listen to the show for a laugh from time to time. Somebody called in once to say he "owned a bigfoot". "Where'd you get it ?" "I'd rather not say." "Will you give us a hint ?" Pause. "I built it. Out of... spare parts." He has one of those guys on pretty much every night. It's like a reverse musical chairs game for wingnuts: when the music stops, the last guy who was on the show predicting disaster is a genius.