Michael Hardner
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Posts posted by Michael Hardner
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Being a peer reviewer is a volunteer position. Checking data takes a lot of time. Sceptical scientists are under pressure to produce papers with 'new' results. Simply checking the data from another paper does not give any ROI. That is why SteveMc makes a distinction between auditing and science. Auditing only checks the numbers and does not attempt to develop new ideas or theories. It is a very important job that is not getting done and the garbage CRU code is the consequence.
All scientists are under pressure to review papers, and although checking data can take a lot of time it doesn't need to.
Sorry, but it sounds like a cop-out to say that tons of data is being faked, or is inaccurate and nobody has looked, and nobody has time to look. That being said, it might be true. The banking scandal in the US in 2008 was a result of people who were paid to audit and review not doing so.
Who? SteveMc? He is more than qualified given his background in statistics and is willing to do it himself but he keeps being denied access to the data by the scientists.
I think you had this disagreement with Waldo earlier on the thread. I don't understand why he is being denied access while others are not ? Or does nobody have access ? This isn't making sense to me because earlier you said that scientists don't have time to check data so which is it ?
Please provide me some concrete examples of why climate scientists can be trusted to fix the process. I can give you a long list of examples that show they cannot be trusted - included the post I just made above.
I can't say for sure, however: It's an open process, where the problems that have been highlighted are clear to all so it should be evident to all whether the fixes for those same problems (whatever they may be) are working moving forward.
You gave some examples where the system seems to have failed. Those will have to be looked into to determine what happened, and whether anything needs to be fixed or not.
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Peer reviewers almost never check the data. All they really do is look at the presentation in the paper to see if the conclusions are supported by the presentation. The data could be completely fabricated and the peer reviewer would never know.
Why don't they check the data ? Aren't there scientists that are skeptical of GW that would be interested in looking at the data ?
All scientists know this but that has not stopped alarmists from selling peer review as an infalliable quality control mechanism when nothing could be further from the truth.
This is a point that SteveMc has been trying to make for years but everyone ignores him because he is labelled as a 'denier'.
Why doesn't he just get somebody with credentials to review the data ?
The fact is our scientific processes are completely broken and they need reform and this is not going to happen until our political leaders have the guts to confront the scientists and inform them that their attitudes are no longer acceptable if they wish to participate in science that is used to develop public policies.
You can't legislate good sense, as has often been said. If scientists are getting lazy in their thinking, I do trust them to pay attention and fix the process. It doesn't make sense to get government involved to solve every problem that's out there.
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Thanks. It is rare that you agree with me on anything.
I don't particularly identify you as someone I disagree with often... -
Open a new thread on the Chinese (is it Mandarin or some other version) language. This has no place on a climate thread.
Agreed - this is a side topic of marginal interest.
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The reason is simple: the media allowed themselves to be duped into believing that sceptics of AGW had nothing important to say and refused to cover the issues they raised. We see that trend continuing in the MSM where almost no outlet is covering the Climategate issue outside of opinion columns.
Is data review normally part of peer review or not ? If so, when did that change with GW studies and what was the reason that was given for the change ?
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Your probably right in Canada we would do nothing, personally i say hats off to the Swiss for protecting their country and their culture! What is happening in Britain should be a wake up call for everybody... Radicles stand on the street corners threatening Englanders with their plans for Sharia Law and violence.
Sigh... another post, another bit of hyperbole. Can we PLEASE have a CITE that describes a situation where England allows this to happen. Where they allow RADICALS to stand on the street and threaten people ?
Don't provide a cite of an isolated incident where an unstable individual threatened somebody, as you and I both knows it means nothing.
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The FDA and other government regulatory bodies have very strict rules about procedures and software developed during testing of a drug. If these guidelines are not followed the drug cannot get approval becauses the results cannot be trusted. The fact that the results might be right anyways is irrelevant.
That is the issue here. We cannot trust results produced from such a codebase therefore we cannot act on them - even if they are true. We need to rebuild these temperature records from scratch.
Well, I can't understand how a study can be published without making the data available for scrutiny anyways, as well as the models. Any problems they had developing the paper is beside the point, as long as the data and processes are transparent.
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If Canada is smart we will follow suit,nothing wrong with practicing your religion but you have to draw a line somewhere!!
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/11/29/swiss-minarets.html#socialcomments-submit
Such an action would do nothing but provoke a Charter challenge, which would rightfully be lost.
Swiss Muslims say the recent construction of Sikh temples and Serbian Orthodox churches is proof that Islam is being singled out for discrimination.Hopefully, no politician will try grandstanding in this way soon.
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And based on stuff like this, politicians are going to blow up our economy and lower our standard of living to "fix" the climate?
Really, it makes as much sense as writing off AGW based on some incomplete project notes from a programmer.
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I put these allegations with all of the "second guessing" type allegations that are put up against presidents - Democratic and Republican. They're useless until a time when the full picture is known. This type of thing is just a drive-by for press release, i.e. political purposes.
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August, Michael, by now you should see the futility of a discussion with ww. He is neither capable of properly articulating his position, nor is he cabable of seeing the analogies relevant to his position. His only response is to repeat his inconsistent position ad nausem. If I were you I'd save the effort of a pointless discussion.
I'll give him another chance to answer the main question again.
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I am not talking tariffs on fininshed goods or service coming into Canada or going out of Canada. I am talking about the "employing" of people outside of Canada for the companies day to day functions: IT, customer service, product repair/service, etc. If employing outside of Canada is done, Canada is entitled to its lost income taxes and no prices will not go up because other the market dictates prices via competition. Also, taxes would decreas in general because Canadians will no longer be subsidizing these cheating corporations.
As I have shown, lost income taxes happen in the other cases too.
Prices will not go up because the market dictates prices via competition ? We're talking about banking here, which is an oligopoly.
I have countlessly explained what operational departments are.I know what they are but the question is - why do you focus on operational departments ? What about project work for example, which is NOT operational work, and takes a significant amount of labour offshore ?
There are proper channels to conduct business if you do not want to do the work yourself. You contract out the work or you are a company to do the work. As for banks, whynot allow foreign banks unfettered access to Canada and to compete with Canadian banks on a level playing field. Canada's banks are protected by regulations against foreign banks. The banks are abusing Canadians in their employment practices and how they are protected from Foreign bank competion. The fact is our banks are betraying Canadians and Canada with their practice. If we allow banks to continue to get way this then we have to allow companies like siemens who use to have manufacturing in Ontario to continue to promote there business in Canada but have channeled all work outside of Canada. Siemens was whining about bombardier getting the subway car deal which will be in Canada versus what they wanted to do is have them made in China and brought to Toronto. How does buying subway cars from Siemens a foreign national building in China benefits Canada's GDP? It doesn't. It takes subway fares and hard paid tax dollars Canadians have paid and diverts it to Corporate Siemens outside of Canada and into China's GDP numbers. As for your consumer angle How is a consumer shopping in China personally and bringing the stuff back to Canada? They are not but the outsourcing company such as a bank is personally going to India and the fruits of that outsourced work is seen by Canada/Canadians by answer of a phone outside of Canada.
Well bringing foreign competition in is tricky politically, but I'm all for it. ING is trying it, but there are significant barriers to that.
I am being consistent and clear. You are trying to twist my position around unsuccessfully I must say. The position has stated countless times. Finished goods and services tariff free. Inputs to getting products or services to finished goods and services performed outside of Canada is subject to a lost income tax/business tax penalty.
I'm trying to find a principle upon which your ideas are based. So far, it seems to be about "greed", the banks, and putting tariffs and not others.
I'm finding it hard to argue against your position because I can't find anything consistent about your position.
It appears you are an advocate of selfishness. You think its ok for a corporation to take from Canada and give nothing back in the way of taxes and employment to sustain the micro economics of Canada.
I asked you the difference between banks being greedy and well-run, as economically it means the same thing: seeking profits. The bank doesn't care if it saves $1 with new technology, or outsourcing. It doesn't discriminate, but it just wants that $1 and any future $1 it can get. As I said, I asked you to answer that and you didn't. Please answer my questions.
My question about the difference between outsourcing companies and outsourcing consumers was answered the passage including this sentence:
"They are not but the outsourcing company such as a bank is personally going to India and the fruits of that outsourced work is seen by Canada/Canadians by answer of a phone outside of Canada."
What does that mean ? Because Canadians deal with people from India then this should be treated differently ? This is economics WW - why differentiate in that way ? And what does that mean "a bank is personally going to India" ?
A bank can't personally do anything. Again, you're taking your approach to be primarily punishment, without consistency.
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Michael Hardner - I'd advise against posting the Heritage Foundation ranking of countries as accurate, as I'm certain they're missing many sources of government revenue and underestimating the total spending of the government.
Ok, well I posted two sources, and they both show Canada around the 25% MARK in spending relative to the world.
Of course, you'd say that 1/4 the world or more is insane but you should understand in your argument that you're outside the mainstream of thought on your opinion.
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Right......Walmart is an example of a good capitalistic business. They recognize that their people should not be overpaid for what they do. If the people at Walmart were paid more than what they are what do you think would happen to retail prices? If Walmart people get paid more than people working at Honda do assembly would have to have their wages increased proportionally to compensate for your communist unbalanced economics. No walmart does not cheat Canada or Canadians in paying low wages because the employment is being done in Canada and the consumer is able to afford to buy merchandise from their stores.
Employment is being done in Canada, but the banks are paying less and the government loses income tax revenue, so it's a question of degree really.
And yes, you're illustrating my point here. If we add tariffs and taxes as you're recommending, prices for services would go up as well.
What you saying does not match what I am talking about. Walmart does not outsource operational departments outside of Canada the Banks are and other companies. They are cheating Canada out of its GDP and cheating Canada out of income tax revenue.
Why do you keep saying 'operational departments' ? What's the difference between operations or - say - project work ? And why do you pick on the banks ? You still haven't explained why companies should be held to a different standard than consumers.
For example, you indicated that somebody shopping in Buffalo has to pay Canadian taxes on jeans they buy in Buffalo. Firstly they don't. Secondly, they might have to pay duty but that doesn't make up for the lost jobs. Wal-Mart buys extensively from China, which costs Canadian jobs and doesn't add to Canadian tax revenues but that doesn't bother you either.
You're just not being consistent, and you're not looking at it objectively either. If you were, you wouldn't be using 'greed' as a central plank in your argument. What's the difference between a greedy company and a well-run company with healthy profits ? It's in the eye of the beholder.
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You know its very confusing what is the truth about global warming, when you have so many views out there. We do know that the Canada north is going through changes and its not the good kind, as far as the animals living up there is finding out. Anyway, the Ottawa Citizen printing this about our climate and the myths and truths. http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/From+Climategate+Copenhagen/2279430/story.html
Unfortunately, that article mixes in Global Warming Versus human-caused Global Warming and confuses things right at the end.
For one thing, the computer modelling studies that have now been thrown into question aren't the only form of science behind the climate change crisis. Observational science -- witnessed evidence of melting glaciers, disappearing polar ice, rising sea levels and changing ocean acidity -- also inform the world's understanding of global warming.(<aside> So this is a nice bit of evidence for your friends who say that mainstream newspapers will never be replaced by the internet for quality of information. This thread is better than the Ottawa Citizen article, with links directly to studies and critics and the opportunity to engage with those making claims. </aside>)
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Actually, Wal mart is Canada's largest employer or the second largest employer!!! On that how is Walmart outsourcing operational employment to other Countries? Does Walmart have Warehouses sprinkled on the US side of the border and uses US trucking companies to bring products to the shelves of their stores. Does walmart Canada route calls to their location stores to people outside of Canada? NO! Walmart from what I see is good and straight forward. Yes their shelves are products from China or wherever but the products on their shelves is not their "operational business" How they answer the phone at their stores. How they store their merchadise to get it to the stores. How they ship their products within Canada are all operational components. If anyone of these areas is done outside of Canada than they to should have to compensate Canada for lost income tax revenue.
Using walmart has not helped your argument.
I wasn't trying to help my argument, I was explaining 'economic good'. But to address your concern - Wal-Mart pays low pages, and therefore "cheats" (your term) Canada out of income tax.
The economic good that there is, is lower prices for consumers to answer your previous question. The Wal Mart example was an illustration of that.
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Let there be no misunderstanding, the disputed point is this:
And this alone. Excuse me for trying to shake the common sense tree, I've mentioned my wish to take this back on topic several times.
Your quotes appear to be nested incorrectly there. The comment on the sun increasing in size and intensity are yours, I think, not Wyly's.
In any case - the sun increasing in intensity hasn't shown to be a cause of heating other parts of the atmosphere so what isn't "common sense" here ? I'm just trying to break the logjam in my own mind on what the point of disagreement is.
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I've been holding this back for courtesies sake.....you're an idiot.
Enjoy you last laugh, I'm shaking my head.
I believe your disagreement comes from Wyly saying:
"solar activity has not been linked with this warming since the mid 70's..."
Which relates to the Wiki page explanation - Wikipedia - Global Warming Page
"Observations show that temperatures in the stratosphere have been steady or cooling since 1979"
So you seemed to misunderstand each other here - it's not that solar activity hasn't been proposed as a link since the 70s, it's that the effect of the sun on the earth hasn't appeared to have a warming effect since the 70s.
Again - you're both idiots for insulting each other, and ergo I'm an idiot for insulting the both of you just now.
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I've been holding this back for courtesies sake.....you're an idiot.
Enjoy you last laugh, I'm shaking my head.
I believe your disagreement comes from Wyly saying:
"solar activity has not been linked with this warming since the mid 70's..."
Which relates to the Wiki page explanation:
"Observations show that temperatures in the stratosphere have been steady or cooling since 1979"
So you seemed to misunderstand each other here - it's not that solar activity hasn't been proposed as a link since the 70s, it's that the effect of the sun on the earth hasn't appeared to have a warming effect since the 70s.
Again - you're both idiots for insulting each other, and ergo I'm an idiot for insulting the both of you just now.
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Human beings have an incredible capacity to convince themselves of the truth of what they want to believe. That is why I do not believe that many climate scientists are knowingly dishonest or fraudulant. However, climate science is a discipline where almost nothing can be proven experimentally and climate scientists constantly have to judgement calls into to estimate missing data. The judgement calls are very much affected by what the scientist expects to see. Therefore, the IPCC view of climate science is largely a matter of opinion - not fact.
That's a lot more clear, thanks.
Here is an example of how the temperature record in New Zealand was manipulated to show warming when no data exists in the raw data. This paragraph explains that there is some pseudo scientific rational for the adjustments but, in the end, the adjustments were just made up.
There are certainly scientists out there who would manipulate the data, especially if they knew it wouldn't be detected. However, I believe this is more likely the case of someone trying to "clean up" the data - which is a term you'll see a lot.
The "cleaning up" though, is a gray area. A key point that came out in this thread, though, is the concept of making the raw data available. I'm surprised that that hasn't been done, frankly. This is math - so peer review is absolutely required to confirm calculations as well as opinions and reasonable conjecture.
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Come on, you can't tell me a company who chooses to channel their operational functions such as customer service to another Country in a move to save money is good for Canada. How is it? Yes the corporation may have higher profits but at whose expense? I don't want to subsidize selfish corporations through paying higher taxes because they are exploiting Canada by outsourcing outside of Canada and cheating Canada out of its Income Tax Revenue.
Really, How Can Jim Flaherty and Steven Harper sleep at night while these companies are raping and plundering Canada's GDP. An outsourcing Tax is the way to stop this the evil scourage of the world which is as evil as slavery. The world must stand firm against this evil and stamp it out. Businesses have to compete based on acumen and intellect not by exploiting and cheating. The world cannot be sustained on that model.
The right thing for harper to do is to raise this issue at the upcoming G8/G20 meeting in Toronto. Collectively they can reshape this world and right the Global Tiller and put an end to this scourage.
WW,
It's good because everybody pays less. Wal-Mart is another example. If it weren't "good" (the quotes are there because I"m talking about the economic "good", not personal values or what is actually good for the community on the whole) then people wouldn't shop there.
The costs are lower, so people do shop there and more trade happens. That's a 50,000 ft explanation of the economics.
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What I take from this topic is the interesting way the two sides behave. The "doubters" tend to use citations, but also logic and common sense. They are more thoughtful and skeptical. The pro-global warming crowd evidence no sign of or ability to think at all. There is no doubt in their minds, no postulating, no speculation. There is nothing but rote parroting of kant from the IPCC web sites. Nothing challenges them to think. Nothing causes them to doubt. They also tend to be far less polite, more contemptuous, indignant, angry and self-righteous about anyone doubting The Truth. Because of this they make a very poor case and are entirely unconvincing.
Let see - the "doubters" use citations and the pro-global warming crowd (Argus, at this level of the debate you should be careful to call it AGW, as no-one is really doubting that warming is happening on this thread) is "parroting" websites. What's the difference ?
The doubters also learn on the idea that people are inherently evil and dishonest, that scientists can't be trusted across the board and ultimately that wide global conspiracies are not only possible but likely.
You're right about the rudeness, it's unnecessary and may cause the debate to end early. ( By "end", the best we can hope for is that the debaters hone in on points that are either unprovable, reflective of personal values, or need to be proven in the future - such as the results of an inquiry. )
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I am struggling through this thread. (I'm at page 12... )
Riverwind is a credit to this forum, and this forum is a credit to Canadian political discussion.
Canadian newspapers do not have such discussion forums. On my French forum, this is not on the radar screen.
To follow....
I agree, Auguste. I'm learning more from this conversation than I have before on this topic, as long as it moves forward.
Goat Boy seems to have summarized the point where opinions diverge: scientists concur that there is global warming, but not why it happens.
Other points that I have been convinced of:
There has been, and will be no 'proof' that AGW is happening.
There needs to be an inquiry into the East Anglia emails.
Finally, the global warming problem is, to me, primarily a problem in sharing important, and difficult knowledge across the globe when it needs to be. However, as this very thread shows, one way forward is for a few individuals with divergent opinions to discuss it, and for the rest of us to learn from that.
Swiss Move to Stop Radicle Islam!
in The Rest of the World
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Wulf,
This was nowhere in the video:
Radicles stand on the street corners threatening Englanders with their plans for Sharia Law and violence.
I want that 4 minutes of my life back please.