betsy

I guess this is how it all started? 2. The ROYAL PROCLAMATION OF 1763 "As illustrated by the extract from the letters patent issued to John Cabot cited earlier in this chapter, both France and Great Britain initially had far-reaching plans for imperial adventures in North America that took little account of the rights of the Aboriginal inhabitants. Nonetheless, as the history of French relations with the Innu and Wendat shows, in the early days of colonization the French were usually compelled to seek Aboriginal nations as trading partners and military allies, in that way recognizing the autonomy and independence of the Aboriginal nations with which they sought association." http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ch/rcap/sg/sg11_e.html

I would like to know and understand about these treaties that are at the root of our conflict with the natives. Confessing to something that had not grabbed my interest until most recently in this forum, I admit that most, if not all of my limited and little knowledge about Indian Affairs came from other Canadians, and from articles and controversial news reports (that briefly referred to the treaties). This thread is meant to pore over, interpret and discuss the treaties among ourselves. We may agree or greatly disagree....become heated in our discussions...but at least, we're grabbing the bull by its horn. As a start, does anyone have a link to the ORIGINAL treaties that we can read?

I do not see the practicality of having a mandatory subject solely on Indian studies included in school curriculum of NON-ABORIGINALS. However, information/classes or seminars should be available for those who are interested on the subject. I would rather more time be devoted to helping Canadian children/youth to hone the basics. A good number of our high schoolers and some college students could hardly even spell! Spend education time for acquiring and improving practical skills needed for them to be able to compete world-wide.

I will comply with the request and refrain from adding anymore to this thread.

However the past had played, the outcome is still the same: there is a problem. It is true that my knowledge about the natives mostly being on welfare came from various people. Various people who don't know each other. And they say of the same things. Speaking of the same things, the description of Montgomery about the trashing of houses was also described to me by someone who used to work at a weather station and had access to a reserve. He said that it is common for the natives (in their drunken moments) to use their furnitures for firewood, and then the walls, etc.., This same person also said that once he was a guest in a house in the reserve where an elderly native woman lived. The house was neat and tidy, except that he noticed a pile of firewood stacked up in a corner in the living room. He asked the woman out of curiousity why she keeps her firewood indoors...to which she replied that if she kept them outside they will be stolen. Why do people give practically similar accounts? One of the sources of my information was the native woman activist I referred above. I do understand that not all natives are the same. But apparently the numbers are high.

Liberals seem to have a problem determining right from wrong.

But why should I move away? I am a Canadian. Same as you. And I am just voicing out my opinion as a citizen. I'm the only one here....got some folks back home but seems they don't want to relocate. I came here by my own accord, after deciding that I like the western way of life. It's not the tax-paying that I'm complaining about...it's the way the tax dollars are being spent. It is not my intention to insult you. We are discussing a touchy topic that obviously has the potential to ignite or bring up other issues. This is a forum....where opinions are brought out. All I'm trying to say Temagami is that history could've been much worse.

Who, the folks at Kaledonia? You mean the taxpayers who are refusing to let their kids play the Six Nations youth baseball team because they are still mad at Six Nations? You mean people who'd use their own kids to strike back at those "non-tax-paying natives". Taxpayers.

What, like the two cars, 2.5 kids, the dog, a home, freedom of choice, freedom to pursue their religion in peace? Boy...I'd sure like to be a tax payer. Oh geez...I am! I don't live on reserve so I do pay taxes, and as a taxpayer, I think the government has screwed up...but i have to rely on other taxpayers to change the government and hold them accountable. What do you mean? You can't pursue your own religion? And what about people with two cars, 2.5 kids, a dog and a home. Including the white picket fence. Waterfront. What does that have to do with it? They've worked for it. They pursued and got the American dream. Well, I think the government had been screwing up for the last 13 years. Big time. But just like you, I have been hoping that the Liberal thinkers will see the light!

But what about the tax-payers who had endured? And are continuing to endure? You seem to think that the stereo-typing of natives stem from racism alone. Have you stopped to think that this opinion comes from a segment of society so frustrated at seeing their taxes practically going wherever-nobody-knows and hardly seeing any improvements at all? It's like having someone living in your house for free while we toil at work each and every day....who would not even help with the house chores. Then have the gall to complain about the quality of food and your skills at cooking when you put food on the dinner table....and complain about the spots you miss in cleaning the house! Natives have been given lands. They have been given brand new housing. They don't pay any taxes. Provided with a budget to improve your situation (education, sanitation, etc..,) They all get welfare. Yes, this land have been invaded by whites...followed by various peoples from all over thge world. But it had also been made to what it is now by all these peoples who had come to this place. Too bad. That's the history of this land. Same as the history of my land (which had been colonized by the Spaniards...then freed by the US). If we can't defend it...we lose it. Be thankful that it was not the Germans who conquered and staked a claim in this land....otherwise, your people would have been among the first to go en masse during Hitler's time. Be thankful that the people who came to this shores were not brutally hostile and intolerant, without any qualms and sense of moral values, and had not decided to rid this place of tribes and natives when they came to stake their claim. True, that racism still exists....but it exists in every groups in various forms or degrees. It does exists among natives too. Racism is part of life.

We all have pre-conceived ideas that are unshakeable. The whites have it...the blacks, the reds, the browns, the yellows, the greens....they all have it.

But it still meets the profiles of mass-murder provided by experts. A husband who just lost a job and up to his eyeballs in debts may just "go bonkers" upon coming home to a room full of noisy, fighting kids and a wife who just happened to start a fight at the wrong time. He snaps. That's just it....as experts say, who knows what really caused them to act the way they did. It could have been just one particular word from the wife (or from any of the kids) that made him go for the axe or the shotgun. It could've been just the on-going irritating bling-bling from the nintendo. We've heard of neighbors shocked and unable to believe that their neighbor could've done such a thing: "He seemd a nice and quiet man." If experts cannot conclude....how can we? We cannot just take all family-related mass murders out of the equation, for whatever reasons you may have in wanting to exclude them...because that will definitely render this topic (and the attempt at "serious discussion" and understanding we're aiming for), a complete farce.

No. There was no deliberate intention to murder. Although the racers were racing illegally, the killing was accidental.

How can we assume a person's identity by the sound of his name? Some blacks have French-sounding names. How do we know about a person through his name....or even through his picture? Racial mix is very common! We have a lot Filipinos who you would mistake for whites! I could never guess the difference between some Filipino name or a Mexican/Spanish.

Nevertheless, it stills fall under Mass Murder. Just like the murder of those women by Lepine. The target or the focus was on women....something about that had obviously triggered the spree.

I have to bring up suicide, Tem since somehow I do think that some, if not most factors that cause mass muder-suicides is the same as that of simple suicides. The numbers of suicides in the reserves, along with the rising numbers of mass-murders (which now shows not confined to one particular racial group), is more cause for concern than that of serial killings.

According to this link, "Metis intellectual and activist, Howard Adams, argues that this eurocentric myth, that Aboriginal people are inferior to the Euro-Canadian society, has been ingrained into Aboriginal consciousness. In Adams' own words: Racial stereotypes also play an important role in shaping a Native's consciousness. Subjective feelings, such as inferiority, are an integral part of consciousness, and work together with the objective reality of poverty and deprivation to shape a Native's world view. Society's ideological system determines one's viewpoint and shapes one's consciousness--most often for life (Adams 1995: 37)." http://www.ualberta.ca/~nativest/pim/suicide.html -------------------------------- I tend to believe this. Some wrongs may have been done to natives in the past....however, no acknowledgments or apologies...or even compensations will ever change what is happening now, unless everyone works together to make that change. And that "everyone", includes most especially the natives too. One native woman activist (cannot remember her name) criticized the kind of "special status" the natives are getting. She sees how the welfare system is destroying her people. And she is right. It is hard enough to go through the growing pains like any other teenagers....but the native youths have more to endure. It is hard to build one's self-esteem when he knows he actually totally depends on another for his existence....and from the same people his own people have been warning him about. It is hard to shake off feelings of hopelessness and despair when he is constantly reminded of the painful past by his own people, and therefore he is owed...to be always on his guard....that he is different...that the world outside is out to screw him up everytime... and ending up carrying this simmering anger inside. It is hard when he seems to always be on the other side of the fence looking in. And not being able to contribute to society adds to the feeling of being "useless"....inadequacy....and failure in achievements. So self-worth of a youth's assessment of himself is not encouraging....but rather grimly daunting. Society may have this stereo-typing of a people, but this very same assessment is somehow only a mirror reflection too on how a person regards himself. These subjective feelings are being caused more by the natives in the reserves....and being passed on to the future generation. And if all those other social ills are rampant within the reserves....then it means the reserve is not doing the people any good. It is destroying your youth. And this will only perpetuate. Self-pity and finger-pointing will not change this. I am not expalining myself well here....I'm trying.

Wikipedia actually has both Canadian serial killers and Canadian mass murderers as topics. Serial killers are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cana..._serial_killers and mass murderers are here: Wikipedia-Canadian mass murderers Now, I do have some issues with both categories. In the serial killers category, they include Thomas Cream, who was a serial killer from the 1800's. I do not include him in discussion because we've had more activity of this nature since post WW-II. I find the mass murderers more distressing because it misses Pierre Lebrun (OC Transpo shooter) and Victor hoffman, the Shell Lake murderer. Likewise, I do not want to include Mark Chahal, the guy who killed his ex and several of her family members at his ex-sister-in-law's wedding, and not becuase he is Indo-Canadian, but because that was more of a violence against women episode, nor do I want to use the recent Biker murders or the murder of 14 people in a vault in Montreal because these are more related to purposeful criminal activity. I've checked through all the names and, with the exception of Lepine and his half-Algerian heritage, all are Caucasian-canadian. There are 10 serial killers (adding Pickton) and 6 mass-murderers (adding Hoffman and Lebrun) in the post WW-II era. I hope this is a good base to start from. To be honest, I completely forgot about Fabrikant. I was living in the bush at the time, so news items usually reached me a bit later than everyone else with a T.V. or radio. I found out about Gorbachov's incarceration and Yeltsin's rise to fame after it had all transpired, and they were about at the same time. Mass murder stats is drastically changed by now. A person who murders two or more members of his own family falls into the category of a mass murderer. We've seen a slew of them happening steadily in the last few years. And they belong to various racial groups.

No, I can provide no link because this is something that has been going around the AFN & COO. People from those organizations who have helped at reserves with high suicide rates always note that the most religious of the fly-in reserves are always the most prone to youth suicide. They are also quick to note that youth suicide is no where near the same level, or simply not an occurence, on reserves where Christian religion is dying out and the old beliefs are coming back. Religion was not mentioned in any of the studies. Btw, what is AFN and COO?

A simple question about a difficult problem. In my opinion the answer is yes. Particularly in this case because it isn't speculation. Your daughter has demonstrated she can't be a parent. Good Luck I agree with Wilber.

Can a social worker meddle in such things? To what extent can they interfere? I think inspite of your daughter's condition...you have a good relationship with her. It is highly possible that you can persuade your daughter to agree with you....without this social worker undermining what you think is for the best interest of everyone. If it is the social worker who stands in your way (which I think it is)....then try to do something about it.

Thank you. At one time in Ontario sterilization was automatic. Now it is rarely done, without uncoerced permission from the person to be sterilized. Ironically, my daughter is unable to make a decision of that magnitude without some gentle persuasion. I believe it is in her best interest (as does her GP) because she is much happier now that she is free from any responisibilty with regards to her child. Initially, our role was to be supervisors, because the powers that be thought she could do this. Only her own family knew otherwise, but our hands were tied. Now that the Children's Aid, fearing for our grandson's safety, will not allow her to get closer than ten feet, it has become a nightmare. I love my daughter. We speak on the phone at least twice a day and she rarely asks about her son. She visits me while he is in nursery school or when I'm not alone so that I have physical support should she become unmanagable. (I have MS myself so don't have the physical strength to control her) Because she is on ODSP (Ontario Disability Support Program), we have been given what they call an Emergency Foster Care Supplement of $220.00 per month in addition to another $200.00 per month respite for me. We would still look after him without any financial support, but am not sure how many more, if any, we can raise. My daughter is 28 so has at least 10 more years of prospective childbearing. In 10 years my husband will be 72! Again, if we are to be responsible emotionally, morally and financially for her children, why can we not insist that she have her tubes tied? Sure, we could just turn our backs and allow them to go into foster care (non-family member foster parents get $ 49.00 per day), but they are still my grandchildren!! I just couldn't do it. I'm so sorry to hear about your plight. If she has an IQ that of a 12 year old....then shouldn't she be considered a minor, and therefore you, as the guardian make decisions for her? Could you take this to court?

Temagami, I have scratched the surface of youth suicides in the Reserves....and would like to continue more about it. However, I do not wish to derail your topic, therefore I will probably start a topic on the subject.

Mass Murderers are bent on self-destruction, literally....for most of them always end up committing suicide. The only difference of their act to normal suicides is that they take other lives with them. I don't think society is burying its head in the sand about serial killings and mass murders, otherwise there wouldn't be any studies on these. It's just simply that there are "ailments" and other social ills that are too complex to enable a researcher to simply conclude on specific factors. How many serial killers do we have in Canada? I only know of Olson, Hamolka/Bernardo, Pig Farmer and the new one now (killing prostitutes?). The numbers of serial killers we have is nothing to be scared off....compared to other more disturbing AND HORRIFIC occurences. We do have a lot of Murder-Suicides it seems...especially among families. Practically once a month or more, you hear of a dad blowing away his whole family...or an offspring killing his family etc.., And by the looks of it, this phenomenom is not confined to any particular race. When you think you are safe and feeling secured in your own home, within the bosom of your loved ones, the ones you would trust more than anyone else in this world....only to meet a violent death at their hands. Now, THAT, is scary.

This study never mentioned anything about Christianity in particular. Ironically, it could be that Christianity may even have a role in PREVENTING more suicides for those who've embraced the faith. "Aggressive assimilation policies like the residential school system are responsible for the insecure family situations found in Native communities today. Residential schools attempted to strip away Aboriginal culture from Aboriginal children. Studies have shown that children who survived the residential schooling system report overwhelming feelings of loss, depression and loneliness, all a result of being taken away from their family and culture. This accounts for those individuals who attended residential schools, however, a reasonable question to ask at this time would be: How does the suicide problem affect those who did not attend any of the residentials schools? In assessing the suicide problem, researchers must often look at a variety of reasons for the self destructive patterns in Aboriginal populations. In other words, determining the cause of suicide can not always be reduced to a single event in an individual's life, but must be looked at in the context of their own life situation." http://www.ualberta.ca/~nativest/pim/suicide.html