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Protesters shut down quarry outside Deseronto


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Poor poor Borg...Just a poor racist without a cause....All your "evil white man" self pity should be channeled to something more constructive...perhaps like getting a real job...

People love to call me that word - until they meet my wife - who is not white. I did not buy her, but her family was a bit upset that she went against an arranged marriage - we think they are over it now - as I have been married to her for nearly 30 years and our kids are nearly all grown and gone.

I just call a spade a spade. If you do not like the truth then it is you with the problem.

It is always the hard done by noble red man and the evil white guy. You prove my point.

After all you have to be white before you can be racist, a crook or a cheat. And you have proved it.

I have to travel for a bit - back in a week or so - I might even condescend to read your response.

Ta ta Posit

Borg

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All your "evil white man" self pity should be channeled to something more constructive...perhaps like getting a real job...

Why so the government can tax him more and hand it over to the Indians, effectively doing their stealing for them.

If they want to clear the site of these terrorists just yell work.

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If it's posted land all it needs is a sign. As a land owner dealing with people who fill ditches on my land I exercise this right to the full extent of the law.

Actually, once the land owner requests them to leave, you've got to go, sign or not. Landowners in Canada need to have the right to force to defend their property from such hooligans, unfortunately we rely on the police which won't touch a 'FN' protestor no matter what law they are breaking (we saw it in Caldonia, and the police let things get out of hand in Ipperwash too, unfortunately a trespasser got shot there).

The only safe solution is to arrest all such protestors immediately. Before they force things out of control.

The band council that supports these idiots needs to be compensating the quarry for any lost revenue.

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If it's posted land all it needs is a sign. As a land owner dealing with people who fill ditches on my land I exercise this right to the full extent of the law.

Actually, once the land owner requests them to leave, you've got to go, sign or not. Landowners in Canada need to have the right to force to defend their property from such hooligans, unfortunately we rely on the police which won't touch a 'FN' protestor no matter what law they are breaking (we saw it in Caldonia, and the police let things get out of hand in Ipperwash too, unfortunately a trespasser got shot there).

The only safe solution is to arrest all such protestors immediately. Before they force things out of control.

The band council that supports these idiots needs to be compensating the quarry for any lost revenue.

Then they bitch about the rights to free speech, assembly, etc. they even come back. They won't even care if it's on private property, a landowner has a stronger point if his land is posted.

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The land owners are the Mohawks of the Bay of Quinte. The Federal government recognizes that. They are negotiating to try to figure out what to do with the people who have farms, rural homes and a good chunk of Deseronto on that territory. There really isn't a question about ownership.

The very fact that you hold out your wife as a shield verifies the racist overtones in your voice. I feel sorry for her that you would use her ethnicity as a defense against YOUR own bigotry.

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The land owners are the Mohawks of the Bay of Quinte. The Federal government recognizes that. They are negotiating to try to figure out what to do with the people who have farms, rural homes and a good chunk of Deseronto on that territory. There really isn't a question about ownership.

I could give less than two shits what you believe the land is... the registered owner is the quarry or it's leasor. Your right there isn't a question about ownership. In our civilized land called Canada, the provincial government has absolute authority over the land titles system, and the land does not belong to any Mohawks of Quinte. If you or the Mohawks disagree, there is a legal process to follow that doesn't involve illegal occupations.

The very fact that you hold out your wife as a shield verifies the racist overtones in your voice. I feel sorry for her that you would use her ethnicity as a defense against YOUR own bigotry.

I'm not married, you must be refering to someone else? I can't really tell because no one has mentioned their wife in this thread. Perhaps you should make it clearer who you are slandering with claims of racism.

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Wrong again. Under the Indian Act the province has absolutely no jurisdiction. No taxing authority. No title authority. Not even highways, lakes or rivers. If you are going to debate a topic like this I would suggest that you study up first. You're looking silly.

Borg mentioned his wife as evidence he wasn't a racist and said he didn't own her either.....

The occupation is perfectly legal. The Nation Police are there and they cannot see any reason why people like you would be upset. The law is being complied with - the law of territorial ownership trumps any provincial or private interests...since again according to the Indian Act no one but an Indian can hold a certificate of possession on the territory.

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"I could give less than two shits what you believe the land is... "

That is precisely the point and why you lack credibility.

"In our civilized land called Canada...."

yah we get the cheap shot inferring aboriginal peoples are not civilized. Again it makes you very credible.

"the provincial government has absolute authority over the land titles system...."

No it does not but don't let a little thing like the law get in the way of your opinions.

"....and the land does not belong to any Mohawks of Quinte...."

Well of course you have made it clear you are not interested in the legitimate legal rights and ownership of these nations, you said it in your first comment...however some of us "civilized" Canadians, i.e., non aboriginals believe the Mohawks and many other nations have legitimate legal claims and we are not interested in making racist slurs against them and want to find a fair way to resolve claims.

"If you or the Mohawks disagree, there is a legal process to follow that doesn't involve illegal occupations."

Its not an "illegal" occupation. It is an occupation and it is non violent. Aboriginals unlike the British and French don't go around stealing land and trying to convert people to Christianity. They peacefully try bring attention to the violation of their rights.

"I'm not married,".

That's cool. Some of my best friends are gay. Besides I have been married quite some time. Its not always easy.

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"I could give less than two shits what you believe the land is... "

That is precisely the point and why you lack credibility.

Well no, I can check the title registry and find that the land is legally the possession of the quarry or it's leasor. What these people think is rather irrelevant. I don't care for emotional pleas for the land of some distant relative that may or may not (more likely not) have lived there.

"In our civilized land called Canada...."

yah we get the cheap shot inferring aboriginal peoples are not civilized. Again it makes you very credible.

I was making it clear that we have laws and processes to deal with things. Trespassing and illegal protests are not part of civilized culture.

"the provincial government has absolute authority over the land titles system...."

No it does not but don't let a little thing like the law get in the way of your opinions.

What the hell are you talking about? Do you know anything about the land titles system in Ontario or any province in Canada?

"....and the land does not belong to any Mohawks of Quinte...."

Well of course you have made it clear you are not interested in the legitimate legal rights and ownership of these nations, you said it in your first comment...however some of us "civilized" Canadians, i.e., non aboriginals believe the Mohawks and many other nations have legitimate legal claims and we are not interested in making racist slurs against them and want to find a fair way to resolve claims.

What racist slur? The fair way to resolve claims is to treat them equally to everyone else. If I walked on to a Native reserve that I claimed and shut down their businesses because of it, I'd be promptly removed. Why the double standard?

That's nice that you believe in some inherent right to ancestrial lands and privledges only to certain DNA groups, but hey, the majority of Canada likely joined the modern ages long ago. If you want to return to the 1700's way of thinking, have at it. I prefer not to.

"If you or the Mohawks disagree, there is a legal process to follow that doesn't involve illegal occupations."

Its not an "illegal" occupation. It is an occupation and it is non violent. Aboriginals unlike the British and French don't go around stealing land and trying to convert people to Christianity. They peacefully try bring attention to the violation of their rights.

It's an occupation. If your on my land, and I ask you to get the hell off, your required to do so. End of story. These protestors are breaking the law by trespassing. That is illegal.

"I'm not married,"

.That's cool. Some of my best friends are gay. Besides I have been married quite some time. Its not always easy.

How typical. Can't deal with the facts so you resort to a personal attack. Bravo Rue, bravo.

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Wrong again. Under the Indian Act the province has absolutely no jurisdiction. No taxing authority. No title authority. Not even highways, lakes or rivers. If you are going to debate a topic like this I would suggest that you study up first. You're looking silly.

The Indian Act doesn't apply here. When they have a judgement in their favour on the status of the quarry and reach a land claims settlement, then the act applies. Until then, the province of Ontario has sole jurisdiction over the ownership of the land in the area.

The occupation is perfectly legal. The Nation Police are there and they cannot see any reason why people like you would be upset. The law is being complied with - the law of territorial ownership trumps any provincial or private interests...since again according to the Indian Act no one but an Indian can hold a certificate of possession on the territory.

Can you cite this 'law of territorial ownership' and when it's been upheld in a Canadian Court of Law? Or is this more games of the pretend states?

Canadian Constitutional Act, 1867:

S. 92 EXCLUSIVE POWERS OF PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURES

In each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Matters coming within the Classes of Subjects next hereinafter enumerated; that is to say...

...13. Property and Civil Rights in the Province.

...

Sorry, but that's the rules. Ontario has jurisdiction to decide who the owner of that land is, until a Court decides that the Indians have a claim there. They don't. So too bad, get off the private owners land, end of story.

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So, so wrong.

The Indian Act applies to all territories within the Territory. The Culbertson Tract was never taken out of the territory - something the feds have admitted - and so the Act applies totally and exclusively over and above ANY provincial application.

The only point of negotiation is what to do with the squatters that are on the territory that shouldn't have been there in the first place. As of this week the Chief has submitted a timetable for return of the tract and with some hundred or so Mohawk households on the Tract and a whole lot more with their houses for sale, it shouldn't take too long.

Of course the feds are going to buy out the residents but like any expropriation they have no rights. This reclamation is one of things things that falls "in the public interest" so non-natives will be moved out without any fuss to the Mohawks of the Bay of Quinte. That comes from the latest rounds of negotiations as told by a friend of mine on the territory. The details are in the fine print.

BTW there are no courts involved. This is a direct negotiation with the feds since they have admitted the Culbertson belongs to the Mohawks.

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Of course the feds are going to buy out the residents but like any expropriation they have no rights. This reclamation is one of things things that falls "in the public interest" so non-natives will be moved out without any fuss to the Mohawks of the Bay of Quinte. That comes from the latest rounds of negotiations as told by a friend of mine on the territory. The details are in the fine print.

Sounds racist to me.

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Of course the feds are going to buy out the residents but like any expropriation they have no rights. This reclamation is one of things things that falls "in the public interest" so non-natives will be moved out without any fuss to the Mohawks of the Bay of Quinte. That comes from the latest rounds of negotiations as told by a friend of mine on the territory. The details are in the fine print.

Sounds racist to me.

All for something that happened a couple hundred years ago.

I wonder if my family can go back to the potato famine and make a claim?

Only the noble red man and only in Canada.

Racist? The policy, Posit or Posit's thoughts?

Seems he refuses to answer questions - even if politely asked. Providing an answer at the same time.

Hmm ... Going to buy out the houses?

One year and I am sure those free houses and building will not be worth even a small percentage of today's value. Give someone something for nothing and it is never appreciated - make them work for it and it holds value. I wonder how long they will look as good as they do now?

:->

Borg

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Making a legal argument - even one that is Charter based is hardly racist. But I do understand that you don't like to lose and bring out the racist card when you are at a loss for words.

This is as current and relevant today as it was 150 years ago. Only Indians couldn't hire lawyers, go to court and make petitions to government until about 50 years ago. And it has taken them years just to research the claims since the government continues to withhold evidence.

From what I understand the Culbertson Tract was brought to our government's attention over 40 years ago and they still haven't done anything about - even though is is a valid claim. The land was never turned over.

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The facts don't matter. They don't recognize the authority of the Crown over them... but I'm sure they don't pay out of pocket for health care.

Don't be silly, they believe that because some ancestor once roamed the woods of the area, that they are entitled to the land. We should turn over a profitable industry for that purpose!

Give it all way. DNA is the ticket to someone else's wealth in Canada.

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The scuttlebutt is that Minister Prentice is on his way out as INAC Minister. He can't take the heat.

However, the key to INAC policy is :" it will only happen on a willing-seller/willing-buyer basis." There can be all kinds of non-violent, non-intimidating methods of enticing someone to sell - most importantly, the right price, and the feds have shown they have lots of cash to wave around. Houses are being bought up as we speak.

The rest will be charged a rent in lieu of taxes as the town of Deseronto disappears from the list of provincial municipalities.

It is apparent Geoff that you neither care about the law, or injustice caused by inequity. This is a legal matter that is being resolved in a peaceful manner. The thing about it is just because the Mohawks are taking action doesn't mean it is violent or illegal.

BTW the only violence so far has come from the OPP and the army guys that tried to run over some protesters running an information line back in November.

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The facts don't matter. They don't recognize the authority of the Crown over them... but I'm sure they don't pay out of pocket for health care.

Don't be silly, they believe that because some ancestor once roamed the woods of the area, that they are entitled to the land. We should turn over a profitable industry for that purpose!

Give it all way. DNA is the ticket to someone else's wealth in Canada.

Facts have never matter when it comes to indians. As you say dna is the ticket to wealth.

Pay? I know your list is short - their "no pay list" is huge.

All you have to do is look at 100 Mile House and the noble red man who dreamed the place was holy - put a rancher out of business.

The rancher stated he dreamed all the indians were dead - and unfortunately when he woke up they were still there.

Cold Lake has paid for the land that was "sold" to the whites at least three times - I think the last time it was 50 million or thereabouts.

Numerous tales of this in western Canada - so many that folks are well and truly tired of it.

All an indian has to do is tell a story - or lie about a hunt in 1307 - and it is now indian land.

The middle east has terrorists - we have the indian.

Everyone off the reservation please - go find a job. No more indian affairs - we will save billions of dollars.

And puhleeeze - no more apologies for the things that happened before I was born - I had no control over those event.

Posit is a noble red man.

Get off your butt and get a job and start paying for your share please. I suspect your 6 figure salary you mentioned was a lie.

If it is true - then it is from running cigarettes.

Borg

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It is apparent Geoff that you neither care about the law, or injustice caused by inequity. This is a legal matter that is being resolved in a peaceful manner. The thing about it is just because the Mohawks are taking action doesn't mean it is violent or illegal.

I really do care less about inequity. We should all have equal rights (meaning no DNA based rights to tax breaks, education and government jobs), but past that, I really don't care... it's not my problem.

What is my problem is when the property rights of land owners in a country where I happen to reside are ignored and trampled on by a gang of hooligans. Where are the police to enforce the laws of the land.

You've been proven wrong Posit in the post by Ontario Voter. There is no such thing as expropriation to give Indians their superior rights. Good thing Canada holds on to some little fringe of equity of rights.

Give it up. These people are trespassing regardless of what convoluted reasoning you give. Shouldn't these occupiers be at work?

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I really do care less about inequity. We should all have equal rights...

That is a contradiction. One cannot support "equal rights" when the law, or society does not protect equitable rights. They go hand in hand an attempting to separate them makes you in support of neither.

"Equal rights" are a myth and are unattainable as long as inequities exists. The law provides equal access to people in society to common and reasonable services. Yet less than 1% of Canadians hold some kind of disability, we have laws that make 100% of new buildings where reasonable access must be provided, to be barrier free. We have religious rights that provide for inequities to exist in order for one to choose and practice their religion. We have inequities between the rich and the poor, between those with status and those marginalized by our justice, health and education system. In order to provide for equality - as you say you advocate - we must be willing to devolve ourselves from a market-based system to a socialist driven system, devoid of discretionary authority, and or personal choice being sacrificed over group dominance.

Everyone - Natives included - have inherent rights as human beings. The problem for us is that ours have been limited by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (an oxymoron). These limits allow the government to interfere in our personal decision making / righteousness in favour of others, and allow government to further restrict our rights and freedoms by writ.

And lastly what you miss is that the inherent rights entrenched in our Constitution suggest that we have no right to limit rights of aboriginals because their rights as nations, as peoples and as groups predate our commitment to Confederation. They are not exempt from the limits of rights and freedoms entrenched in the Charter. They are no subject to them because they were here first. And if we were to invite them to join us as citizens of Canada, under the laws of Canada and subscribing to the Charter on an equal basis, then we must remove the inequities first - provide the same economic opportunities, the same heath care and education systems and funding that ordinary Canadians receive through our system of government. As it stands aboriginals are neither treated equitable, or equal in Canada and that is evidenced by hundreds of data based on health access, economic opportunity, educational disparages etc.

No you don't want equality. You want submission.

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In order to provide for equality - as you say you advocate - we must be willing to devolve ourselves from a market-based system to a socialist driven system, devoid of discretionary authority, and or personal choice being sacrificed over group dominance.

No, I advocate every man, woman and child regardless of race having the exact same set of rights. What they do with that is up to them. If they choose poverty, we should respect that choice and leave them where they lay.

Everyone - Natives included - have inherent rights as human beings. The problem for us is that ours have been limited by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (an oxymoron). These limits allow the government to interfere in our personal decision making / righteousness in favour of others, and allow government to further restrict our rights and freedoms by writ.

I don't disagree. The limitations on Indians owning land come to mind. It's a rather fair trade in my opinion, giving up your privledged status to get the right to own land... but really, both concepts should be lost. Your DNA should not determine anything at all ever.

And lastly what you miss is that the inherent rights entrenched in our Constitution suggest that we have no right to limit rights of aboriginals because their rights as nations, as peoples and as groups predate our commitment to Confederation.

No Indian alive today predates the Charter. In Canada, we chose not to have a hereditary Senate. Why do we have hereditary privledges elsewhere?

They are not exempt from the limits of rights and freedoms entrenched in the Charter. They are no subject to them because they were here first.

As my family (at least one half) were amongst the earliest French settlers, does that mean the Charter does not apply to me, as I only recognize the authority of the French Empire over my life? I don't think the Charter would apply to me either. I was here before Canada as much as you were (assuming your a status Indian).

And if we were to invite them to join us as citizens of Canada, under the laws of Canada and subscribing to the Charter on an equal basis, then we must remove the inequities first - provide the same economic opportunities, the same heath care and education systems and funding that ordinary Canadians receive through our system of government. As it stands aboriginals are neither treated equitable, or equal in Canada and that is evidenced by hundreds of data based on health access, economic opportunity, educational disparages etc.

Well, alot of that is by choice. There are lower admission standards to universities for Indians. Lower entrance requirements to the RCMP. A company with an equal Indian and white applicant must be the Indian. Lots of opportunity that way. Being said, my position all along has been to drop all forms of status and have everyone enjoy equal rights in Canada.

I disagree that there is a right to economic opportunity (there are alot of poor white people too). If everyone has equal rights, and our education system stays as accessible as it is today, you can pick your success. If you chose to do otherwise, you alone have to live with that.

No you don't want equality. You want submission.

Just for one race (Indians) to submit themselves equally to the law that I'm submitted to. I think Mandela thought the same.

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Guyser. Are you a homosexual stalker? My background, my personal information etc. are not subject to interrogation. This is a discussion forum on Provincial politics. Stick to the subjects.

Posit , are you First Nation ? For the fifth time.

(leave the homophobic crap out of here )

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